12 September · Episode 172
How Post University's Career Readiness Model Can Help Not-For-Profit Universities and Graduates
36 Min · By Dr. Drumm McNaughton
Learn how Innovative Career Readiness Strategies from For-Profit Post University Can Be Used as a Blueprint for Not-for-Profit Campuses.
Although a for-profit institution, Post University employs a unique and effective two-fold approach to its career readiness model to ensure graduates are career-ready with lifelong learning skills that “not-for-profit” universities can emulate on their campuses.
In this podcast episode, Dr. Drumm McNaughton speaks with Director Camille Dumont of the Center for Career and Professional Development (CCPD) about how she aligned career services with academia at Post University to better prepare students for the workforce. Camille discusses how Post ensures students are thinking about their careers from the moment they enroll and how online-only learners receive and benefit from the same services as those who attend the university on campus.
- Camille’s mindset on lifelong learning is influenced by personal experience. She successfully transferred the skills she learned in the hotel industry to the healthcare industry and now to higher ed, where she works in Career Services.
- Originally, only Post’s juniors and seniors took a critical Foundation course to learn critical information about their career choices alongside their cohorts in the same field of study. In these courses, students receive prompts to encourage online or in-person discussions so they can start thinking about what it is they want to do.
- On the academic side, students now have conversations with admissions and advising as soon as they are accepted to determine what major or career they might be interested in. Students are then enrolled in a CTC College to Career course based on their answers to provide them with important information as early as possible about their chosen career path, such as the lifestyles of current employees or possible outcomes in related occupations. This can either validate their interests or give them the opportunity to switch early on.
- On the non-academic side, a new CCPD program prepares students for the junior and senior Foundation courses as soon as they enroll. Students first take an assessment of who they are and then build different types of resumes, participate in mock interviews, and learn the art of interviewing and networking, along with the benefits of joining professional associations. CCPD also meets virtually with online students throughout the week.
- CCPD uses the virtual job platform Handshake to conduct virtual career fairs for online students. Post’s webinars inform these students how to prepare for a virtual career fair, such as how to ensure they have the proper background, lighting, and attire. Meanwhile, students create their resumes and upload them onto Handshake.
- CCPD has programs where employers or alumni talk to students on campus. These events are livestreamed, recorded, and hosted on the university website and YouTube channel for online-only students. These recordings are also repurposed for additional learning opportunities. For example, students are asked to identify what skills employers say they need in these recordings and, if they can, to add them to their resume or incorporate them into their overall conversation with employers when applying for a job or internship.
- Post University starts at the basics by not assuming students know everything about transitioning to the workforce to ensure everyone is on the same page. For example, students are taught what a discussion board, rubric, or resume is. Post also ensures that students understand that all work experience matters and that the skills they learned in these jobs are transferrable to various careers. For instance, retail workers acquire customer service and communication skills.
- Post students have access to a locked closet with gently used professional men’s and women’s attire that have been donated by staff and faculty members. Students can try these clothes on and even take them for use in interviews and career fairs, etc.
About Our Podcast Guest
Camille Dumont was recently named the Director of the Center for Career and Professional Development (CCPD). Camille has been at Post University in a variety of capacities since 2011.
As a faculty member, Camille developed and taught courses for her alma mater, Iona College, in the health services management graduate program. She joined Post’s School of Arts and Sciences in 2011 and served as an Associate Faculty member, teaching College to Career courses online and on campus. In 2016, she was hired as an associate program chair for College to Career (CTC), and in 2018, she was promoted to Program Chair (CTC). She also served as the Interim Director of the First Year Experience (FYE). Camille is actively involved in many committees on campus.
After earning her bachelor’s degree, Camille’s professional life began in the Sales and Marketing Department at the famed Plaza Hotel in New York City. While deciding that the hospitality industry was not a long-term career goal, the business skills learned during this time were an essential foundation for her future career endeavors. She spent 10 years working in the health services management field, overseeing the operation of large ambulatory medical practices in New York City and Connecticut, and later served as the program chair of the Allied Health Department at Naugatuck Valley Community College.
Camille served as the President of the Connecticut Career Counseling & Development Association (CCCDA) from June 2021 to June 2022 and is currently on the Board as the Immediate Past President. She is also a member of the National Association of Colleges and Employers (NACE) and the National Career Development Association (NCDA). Camille earned an MS with a concentration in Health Services Management and a BBA, both from Iona College.
Camille brings a wealth of experience to the role, and we are excited about the possibility of growing the CCPD to serve not only Main Campus students but the entire online student population as well. With expansive ideas and a lot of energy, Camille will develop impactful programs and services to support all Post students in their career trajectories.
About the Host
Transcript: Changing Higher Ed Podcast 172 with Host Dr. Drumm McNaughton and Guest Camille Dumont: How Post University’s Career Readiness Model Can Help Not-For-Profit Universities and Graduates
Welcome to Changing Higher Ed, a podcast dedicated to helping higher education leaders improve their institutions, with your host, Dr. Drumm McNaughton, CEO of the Change Leader, a consultancy that helps higher ed leaders holistically transform their institutions. Learn more at changinghighered.com. And now, here’s your host, Drumm McNaughton.
Drumm McNaughton 00:31
Thank you, David. Our guest today is Camille Dumont, director for the Center for Career and Professional Development at Post University. Camille has 25 years of experience in higher ed, continuing education, career development, and academic department management, including president of the Connecticut Career Counseling and Development Association. Camille joins us today to talk about how Post’s new programs are benefiting both campus and online students to graduate more job-ready graduates. Camille, welcome to the show.
Camille Dumont 01:06
Thank you so much for having me.
Drumm McNaughton 01:08
Oh, it’s my pleasure. I am so looking forward to talking about how Post is doing such a great job with graduating career-ready students. This is a very important topic, especially given the changing perception of what higher ed should be. But before we get into that, please tell the listeners a little bit about yourself so that they can understand how you got to where you are.
Camille Dumont 01:37
Thank you for this opportunity. I’m originally from New York. I was born and raised in the Bronx and then Westchester County. I attended Iona University as an undergrad and graduate student. After graduating college, I thought I wanted to go into the hotel industry, and that is what I did. I started at the Plaza Hotel in New York City.
Drumm McNaughton 02:07
Nothing like picking the best, is there?
Camille Dumont 02:09
That’s right, yes. I shot for the top, and it was a wonderful experience. I was there for about two and a half years. But during that time, it made me realize that the hotel industry was not for me. There were a number of things I didn’t realize about it, particularly, that if you want to grow or advance in the hotel industry, you need to move around. That wasn’t something I was really interested in at the time. I was committed to the tri-state area. That’s where my family is.
So, I started to do some networking and ultimately got an opportunity with a healthcare organization out in Queens and Long Island. I was a healthcare administrator. I really enjoyed it. I was able to transfer my skills in helping hotel guests, to helping patients from the management standpoint. I, therefore, decided to pursue a graduate degree to grow in the field of practice management. Once I did that, I was offered a teaching job at my alma mater, Iona University. That was my entry into education.
Years later, I started teaching at Post University, and due to my experience teaching at Iona, I ultimately started working at Post full-time as a program chair for the college-to-career program. I was working with the foundation students, our first-year experience students, as well as our juniors and seniors, both online and main campus, to get them ready professionally. I was just loving that. Then, an opportunity came about a year ago where the career services—or what we call the Center for Career and Professional Development—said that the director role was available. I was so blessed to get it. Since then, I’ve been building the department. I also think my career path is very relatable to our students and, actually, many people in general because careers take on many transitions, and you can use the skills you learn in one field in another. I did that with my guest services skills. I was able to parlay that to patients and then ultimately to students. So, I just love the whole concept of career readiness and helping students in that regard.
Drumm McNaughton 04:55
Well, you bring up an interesting point. You’ve been in three different professions, which is very normal for today’s students and graduates. Now, the statistics say they’re going to have nine different careers in their lifetime. So, the ability to transition from one to the other is really important. When you received your undergraduate degree, did you feel you were ready to move into the workforce?
Camille Dumont 05:25
Well, I thought I was ready. I had this whole idea that I wanted to work in the hotel industry, but I did not have all the information. I did not know what the lifestyle would be like. I did not know what the demands were. Had I known these facts, I perhaps wouldn’t have chosen that field. That’s why we try to focus on the whole idea of what a particular occupation looks like in terms of lifestyle. That’s something to really consider, and I’m not sure tour students are aware of that until we bring it to their attention. I’m happy that I and so many others have experienced it. We’ve learned from it and can bring it to the forefront for students to consider so they can make educated choices.
Drumm McNaughton 06:17
When you went through your undergrad, did you have an internship or something like that?
Camille Dumont 06:22
I worked during college at IBM in Westchester County. I actually found that on my own. So I was really grateful for that experience. You can imagine that working at IBM would be an incredible experience in terms of understanding the world of business and professionalism. I learned so much from that experience. So, I would say that that was equivalent to an internship. Then, just prior to graduation, I landed that role at the Plaza Hotel and was ready to begin about a month afterward.
Drumm McNaughton 07:06
Was your work at IBM congruent and in alignment with what your major was at Iona?
Camille Dumont 07:14
Yes. I majored in Business Administration. When I was working at IBM on a part-time basis during college, it was all business-related.
Drumm McNaughton 07:32
But, it was not a formal internship through the college. It was something you found.
Camille Dumont 07:37
That’s right. Yes, I did. Back in those days, temp agencies were a thing. That’s how I initially got the role. I guess I did well enough that they ended up hiring me permanently. So, I transitioned from the temp agency to a regular part-time employee at IBM in Westchester.
Drumm McNaughton 08:01
I’m curious. Did you do this as a sophomore, junior, senior, or all of the above?
Camille Dumont 08:06
I started during my junior year. That was a really important time for me. Prior to that, I was working in part-time jobs. But, I realized I wanted to do something that was more related to my field of study to get more experience. Somehow, I knew back then that I needed to have this experience on my resume in order to get into my next role following graduation. I particularly had my eyes focused on the Plaza Hotel.
Drumm McNaughton 08:45
That’s like I said, there’s no sense in settling for anything, but the top is there.
Camille Dumont 08:49
Right, and I don’t regret it. As I said, it was a wonderful experience being in New York City as a young person and having the opportunity to meet so many interesting people and working with very large companies that were clients of the hotel. I’m very grateful for it. To this day, I use many of the guest services skills that I learned in that role now. They were just ingrained in me. As I said, I was able to transfer them when I was a practice administrator in the healthcare industry and now as a career services director for my students.
Drumm McNaughton 09:33
That’s something our listeners need to keep in mind when setting up these types of programs. You were able to pull those skills that you learned in different industries and apply them across the board. Let’s talk a little bit about how Post is a different university. It’s been around for a long time. I remember Post when I was teaching for Central Michigan years ago. They had an office on Camp Pendleton. I was in the Southern California area at the time. So tell us a little bit about Post. You have both traditional and online students.
Camille Dumont 10:32
Yes. We teach in two modalities, both online and the main campus. If I remember correctly, the average age of our online learners is 36. Our main campus students are typically traditional freshmen, sophomores, juniors, and seniors aged 18 to 22. There are approximately 700 students on our main campus, and our online student population is about 20,000 and growing. We are very proud that we are able to serve both modalities from an academic perspective and in all that we do in terms of the resources we offer.
Drumm McNaughton 11:23
How did Post come to the realization that they needed to do more to get their graduates ready to enter the workforce? That’s one of the big things that Post is known for, and part of the reason why you moved into this job.
Camille Dumont 11:41
Now more than ever, colleges are looked upon to provide that opportunity. They certainly come with a price tag, and yet there’s no guarantee of what you’re going to get out of it. So there’s the recognition that we have a responsibility to provide students with opportunities so they get something out of this investment.
A year ago, I took over this role, and we’ve been reimagining the department. I’ve been building staff and coming up with numerous programs to provide these services to students, particularly our online population, which can be underserved in higher ed, so they feel like they are getting something out of their investment.
Drumm McNaughton 12:36
Coming in, you didn’t have the typical setup that a “regular” university has. You didn’t have an alumni association and were struggling to identify alums. Plus, there are the Department of Education’s requirements for gainful employment to consider. So you had to take a look at how Post was preparing students and making sure they were finding jobs.
Camille Dumont 13:21
Yes, we are a for-profit institution, and with that comes some requirements, particularly in terms of gainful employment. To the best of our ability, we have to help students find opportunities where they can make a fair living.
Now, we can never guarantee finding students jobs. What we’re in the business of is educating them. And as part of that education, we have to teach them the necessary skills that go along with job hunting and preparation. There’s so much more to it than just looking for a job. Students need to have a sense of self, understanding who they are, what they want to do, and what their ideal lifestyle is, as we talked about.
In addition to that, we must prepare those tangible tools they’re going to need to apply for these jobs. So we’re trying to set students up for now and also the future. They need to understand these workforce-ready skills are actually life-long skills that they will use for as long as they’re they’re in an occupation or a career.
Drumm McNaughton 14:44
Which makes perfect sense. It’s one of the reasons why I wanted to talk with you. There are so many things that “not-for-profit universities” can learn from for-profits. When we spoke before, you talked about a two-fold approach that not only included academics but your center as well. Let’s talk about those if we may, especially the ACA and starting through the academic side because you’re doing things differently than most universities.
Camille Dumont 15:20
I am also functioning as the program chair for the college to career professional development course, which is a requirement for all our students. Students in both modalities typically take it junior or senior year. The course works in conjunction with the Center for Career and Professional Development in that everything the students are learning in the course really prepares them for their professional life. It starts off with an assessment of who they are. Then, they start to work on those tangible tools that include building different types of resumes, participating in mock interviews, and understanding the art of interviewing and networking, along with the benefits of joining professional associations.
So this course is essential, but it can’t do everything, and that’s what we were finding. The department needed to do some reimagining to provide students with additional support, not just for this course, but earlier on so that once they enrolled in the course, all of this would not be new to them. Whether they’re on the main campus or taking our online courses, we’re trying to get students thinking about next steps and starting the process early from the moment they come to Post.
Drumm McNaughton 16:49
So, in junior year, they take this required course, regardless of what their major is. Post is giving them the tools they need to help them choose their career. But the process actually starts before then. It really starts with their first class. There are some essential things you do there. Tell us about those, please.
Camille Dumont 17:16
Absolutely, and this is something I was a part of prior to taking on this role. I was the program chair for the Foundation courses. Those courses focus on putting students in cohorts or meta-majors. So, a student who’s in the business school will be placed in this Foundation course with another student from the business school.
So, they share commonalities in terms of their career goals and are able to talk about them early on in the course. Whether it’s online through discussion boards or on the main campus through in-class discussions and assignments, we give them prompts so they can start thinking about what it is they want to do. And they certainly don’t need to come up with something right away, but it at least gets the conversation started.
For online students, it might be a little bit different. They might already be in an occupation. They’re either thinking about changing or are looking to be promoted. Some might even be starting out. Others are single moms who haven’t worked in a while and want to start again. Whatever situation the student is in, we try to meet them where they are. We try to make it personal and help them throughout the university.
We do have a workforce-ready initiative throughout the university where, at every touchpoint, the student will have an opportunity to talk to somebody about a career-related matter based upon that particular department. It is a shift in mindset that these conversations need to be happening throughout the university, and that’s a tremendous benefit to the student. It’s also a very nice supplement to the Center for Career and Professional Development. It’s the idea of “career everywhere.”
Drumm McNaughton 19:19
I like that term “career everywhere.” Let’s talk a little bit more about the academic side, but I want to make sure we have enough time to talk about CCD. How do you find out what students want to do? You put them in cohorts; it may be business, or it may be another different kind of idea. But how do you find out what it is they want so you can pair them up in cohorts and facilitate these conversations?
Camille Dumont 19:47
When students enter the university, they have conversations with admissions and advising, which determine they have an interest in, say, the business school. So they’re then put into their foundation course, which is CTC 101 or College to Career. Within that course, they’ll talk about business-related topics with their fellow business students, and that conversation gets rolling. At the end, sometimes the student will say, “You know what? I think I’d like to pursue something else. Maybe I’m interested in child studies?” Or, “I’d like to exit out of my business major and and find something else.”
The point is that the earlier these conversations are had, the more awareness we bring to students as to what that type of a major looks like and what the outcomes could be for occupations and careers. This is better because it could validate their interests or it could help them realize that this is not what they thought it was and to pursue something else.
Drumm McNaughton 21:00
That’s really important. Not only do you have the traditional avenues like internships and part-time jobs, but you have CCPD visits and classes every term. You have career fairs as well. One of the things you told me about that I thought was just fabulous was your Career Closet. Tell me about that. That’s neat.
Camille Dumont 21:21
Well, CCPD, the Center for Career and Professional Development started a Career Closet, particularly for our main campus students just because of logistics. We’ve had a very generous staff and group of associates at the university who have graciously donated gently used professional men and women’s clothing to the department. We have a lovely little closet in our building that’s stocked with a mirror and lock so that students can try things on. They are free to take the clothing.
I believe we really have changed attitudes and inspired students to feel professional as they prepare to go to an interview or a career fair we’re holding because they keep the clothes. It’s just a wonderful feeling to know that we have helped them feel good about themselves and confident that they can put their best foot forward in terms of professional attire.
Drumm McNaughton 22:25
That is fabulous, and you do career fairs for online students. The format is a little different, but you do them.
Camille Dumont 22:31
One of the ways in which we reimagined our department was through the acquiring of Handshake. It’s a wonderful job platform. Seventy-five percent of colleges and universities use Handshake. It’s based on connecting employers to college students and alumni and vice versa. It’s very different from other job search engines.
One of the many, many features of Handshake is that it allows us to conduct virtual career fairs. They are just incredible because this is something that we can now offer our online students. Before, we didn’t have a way of offering them a means of attending a career fair. What we did was create a webinar to teach students how to prepare for a virtual career fair. We talked to them about the importance of appearance, particularly if they’re going to be on camera, to ensure they have the proper background, lighting, and attire. We also helped them with their resume so they could upload them into Handshake. This helped them get noticed by employers participating in our virtual career fair.
For example, one of the participating companies was the Secret Service. They conducted a group session, and our students were able to go on to that session and actually see the representatives from the Secret Service who spoke about their internship program. Our students were able to ask questions directly and find out about this wonderful opportunity. We were able to provide this to our online students who are all over the country. We did not have this before. I’m so excited to be able to offer this, and we’ll do it again, probably in the fall in addition to our main campus career fair.
Drumm McNaughton 24:26
That is really neat. I’ve not heard of something like this before. Let’s swap horses. I want to talk about your CCPD, the Center for Career and Professional Development. You’re doing some amazing things there. Tell us about them.
Camille Dumont 24:39
I keep using the word reimagined because we finally recognize that we have this huge population of online students that we need to serve. Some might say that it’s easier to serve those who are in person, and that might be true. In-person students can come to career fairs, enter into a large room, and see employers face to face. But we have a responsibility to our online population as well. So we think about them in everything we do.
For example, we have something called an employer spotlight where we’ll have an employer come to the campus in person and talk to our students. But we’ll also livestream and record the event. When it’s live streamed, students can participate right there. But they can also watch it as a recording if they can’t make it and get all of the information that’s being provided in this employer spotlight webinar. We then house those on our website as well as our YouTube channel so students can access them as resources.
When we had our main campus career fair, we really wanted to be sure that our online students felt like they could participate in some way. So we conducted an employer panel, and we asked three of our participating employers to come into a classroom during the event. They talked about each of their industries, how students can get involved, and the path to getting there. This was live streamed to our online students and also recorded as well. So we do try to incorporate as much as we can for our online student population.
We also meet with our online students throughout the week on Teams. We’ll share our screens so that we can see their resumes, we’ll do mock interviews with them to ensure they’re ready if they have an upcoming interview, and we also bring back alumni to talk about certain topics like how to prepare if you’re going to law school or how they got into their field. These are all live streamed as well.
Drumm McNaughton 27:02
I would imagine that as you build up your alumni association, you have plans to do more of these outreach-type webinars.
Camille Dumont 27:13
Absolutely. So we have a full slate of events already planned from now through next April, with employer spotlights, alumni, and more to come. We’re always planning over the summer. We conducted two alumni webinars, and this was offered again to both modalities, our main campus and online students. We asked our students to ask our alumni what they currently needed as individuals. Each student came up with a different issue, area of concern, or question, and we were able to help and provide them with follow-up meetings.
When we meet with students, it’s not just a one-stop shop. These are continuous meetings until the student feels like they’re ready for the next steps. Our job is to teach students to find that level of independence and take their life-long skills with them throughout their journey and life.
Drumm McNaughton 28:20
So what you’re doing is not only preparing someone with the knowledge and skills that they need to work in their industry from an academic perspective but also from a career perspective. You’re teaching them the skills they need and that they can leverage across whatever area of the economy they’re working in.
Camille Dumont 28:40
Absolutely. We are enabling them and providing them with essential skills that will help them throughout their life. Of course, we’re always there for them, but we want to give them the feeling of self-confidence that they can do this and that they have all the necessary skills, whether it’s how to network, to meet people, have those career conversations, or to present your elevator pitch. We even go as far as teaching them how to create an appropriate LinkedIn profile, as well as so many other important aspects of the whole professional campaign.
Drumm McNaughton 29:22
Yes. This is really great. I’m so glad you were able to talk about what you’re doing in detail, Camille. If you would, what are three things that presidents and board members should be aware of when you’re trying to prepare job-ready graduates?
Camille Dumont 29:40
I would say one of the first things is that we, in academia and Career Services, can never assume that a student knows something coming in. And that’s okay. We have to, as I said, meet them where they are.
For example, maybe they’re first-generation and don’t know what a discussion board is. As educators, we should be teaching them that so they can succeed in using that discussion board. Perhaps they don’t know what a rubric is. How can they understand their grade if they don’t know what the purpose of a rubric is? The same goes for a resume. We can’t assume that all students know the purpose of a resume or what it’s supposed to look like, or the specifics that it has to be geared towards each job that they’re applying to.
So, we really go at it from the standpoint of the basics. That is so important for anybody in the education field to understand. You cannot assume otherwise. You’re doing your students a disservice.
Drumm McNaughton 30:49
Those are really great takeaways; I’m going to add one more to this, something you mentioned. When you have an event like a job fair, make sure you’re recording it and building up that library so that students can come in and pull down a webinar or a recording on a topic they care about to help them make an informed decision.
Camille Dumont 31:24
That’s exactly what we try to do with the webinars that we have already recorded. We repurpose them. We don’t just let them sit there. We’ll set up almost like a book club, where we’ll say to students, “Okay, go ahead and watch this at your leisure. But be prepared, on such and such a date, if you’d like to participate in a discussion surrounding that webinar, and let’s talk about what you learned.” So, it’s an opportunity for students to discuss something that has already occurred but still has value and they can learn from.
For example, when you heard that employer talking, what did you hear them say about the skills they were looking for? If you have them, how can you apply those skills to your resume and in your overall communication with that employer if you’re thinking about applying for a job or an internship there? These are conversations that are essential when I go into classrooms and talk to students, particularly our freshmen. I’ll ask them, “What are you doing for work?” Many of them will say, “Well, I don’t work; I don’t have anything.” They don’t understand that what they’re doing for their part-time jobs is work. They’re thinking that it’s not worthwhile because it has nothing to do with their ultimate career goal. But they don’t understand that those early jobs are essential and are work.
I tell them that if you’re working in retail, you’re learning customer service skills. Do you realize that those customer service skills will serve you and your future employer? No matter what you do, they’re transferable skills. Same goes for communication. Once they hear that, the lightbulb turns on. They start to realize that experience is essential, no matter what the experience is. They need to learn how to communicate that experience. Be proud of it and be able to connect it to a job that they’re looking to acquire and help the potential employer understand that they are a value.
Drumm McNaughton 33:39
Amen, sister. What’s next for you?
Camille Dumont 33:41
There are many plans for our department. We have so many wonderful things happening. We are adding staff. We have an internship coordinator who’s getting our internship process in order to ensure the communication is disseminated throughout the university so everybody knows what we’re doing. We are really on a roll in terms of advertising all our events throughout the university.
We not only rely upon academia, but also the admissions and advising to help us promote our events and get the students to attend. One of the most important things is to get the students there. Somebody once said to me, “You can lead a horse to water, but you have to make him thirsty.”
Drumm McNaughton 34:31
Oh, I like that. Camille, this has been a real pleasure. Thank you so much for being on the show.
Camille Dumont 34:38
It’s been my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. I truly appreciate it.
Drumm McNaughton 34:43
It’s been my pleasure. Take care. Thanks for listening today and a special thank you to Camille Dumont for sharing Post’s approach to graduating more career-ready students. Join us next week when we welcome Michael Itzkowitz, the former deputy chief of staff of the Office of Post-secondary Education at the Education Department. He’ll talk about the importance of analyzing the ROI of a college education, and what all boards and presidents should know about data. Thanks again for listening. See you next week.
Changing Higher Ed is a production of the Change Leader, a consultancy committed to transforming higher ed institutions. Find more information about this topic and show notes on this episode at changinghighered.com. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe to the show. We would also value your honest rating and review. Email any questions, comments, or recommendations for topics or guests to email@example.com. Changing Higher Ed is produced and hosted by Dr. Drumm McNaughton. Post-production is by David L. White.