June 3, 2025 · Episode 262
Adding Leadership Development to Academic Curriculum Design in Higher Ed
29 Min · By Dr. Drumm McNaughton
How to embed leadership development into academic curriculum design to build future-ready graduates and strengthen institutional leadership pipelines
How Institutions Can Systematize Leadership Development for Students and Early-Career Professionals: Leadership Development as an Institutional Imperative
Institutions routinely cite leadership development as a goal, yet few treat it as a strategic priority embedded in academic curriculum design or operational frameworks. Leadership is often assumed to be an innate quality or left to emerge through informal mentoring and experience. As a result, graduates may leave college with technical competence but lack the ability to lead, collaborate, or adapt to real-world leadership challenges.
Dr. Scott Cowen, President Emeritus of Tulane University, believes this is a missed opportunity—and a solvable problem. Drawing on his decades of leadership experience, including overseeing Tulane’s post-Hurricane Katrina recovery and teaching leadership at Tulane and Case Western, Cowen outlines how institutions can take responsibility for cultivating leadership among students and early-career professionals. In this episode of Changing Higher Ed®, he and host Dr. Drumm McNaughton discuss leadership as a teachable framework, the institutional practices that support it, the recommended academic curriculum design, and how presidents and boards can make leadership development an operational priority.
Integrating Leadership Development into Academic Curriculum Design
Following his presidency, Cowen designed and taught a for-credit leadership course at Tulane that became one of the institution’s most sought-after offerings. The course centered on practical leadership frameworks, case-based decision-making, and personal reflection. He later adapted this model into a workbook format in his new book, Lead and Succeed, which is now used at Case Western with 130 enrolled students and other institutions to support student and professional development.
Cowen argues that institutions must go beyond ad hoc workshops and create structured academic pathways for leadership development. This includes integrating leadership into academic curriculum and general education requirements, assigning measurable learning outcomes, and teaching it with the same rigor applied to disciplines such as writing or quantitative reasoning.
Formalizing Leadership Traits: Emotional Intelligence and Behavioral Competencies
Effective leadership in higher education today requires more than vision or confidence. Cowen emphasizes that emotional intelligence, humility, and interpersonal effectiveness are foundational to success. These traits enable leaders to navigate institutional politics, listen to stakeholders, and lead without defaulting to control or hierarchy.
During the episode, McNaughton identifies four specific traits as essential for higher education leaders: humility, resilience, transparency, and adaptability. Cowen affirms this framing and stresses that these characteristics are behavioral—not personality-driven—and therefore teachable. He challenges institutions to stop waiting for “natural” leaders to emerge and instead define what leadership means within their context and build systems to develop those competencies at scale.
Leadership in Action: Crisis as a Systemic Teaching Tool
Cowen’s experience leading Tulane during and after Hurricane Katrina serves as a case study in structured crisis leadership. When the university was forced to close its campus and operate out of a hotel in Houston for eight months, Cowen implemented a strict daily cadence with measurable outcomes. Each day began with an all-staff leadership meeting focused on specific goals. Each evening, he sent out a written update to faculty and staff—summarizing progress, outlining priorities, and sharing unresolved issues.
This practice, which Cowen referred to as “thinking out loud,” became a reliable source of transparency and cohesion. He revived it years later during the COVID-19 crisis at Case Western, reinforcing its value as a repeatable leadership system that institutions can adopt in other contexts.
He urges presidents and senior leaders to view a crisis as more than a management problem—it is a cultural moment that tests the institution’s capacity for alignment, adaptability, and purpose. Leaders who default to information hoarding or ad hoc decisions miss the opportunity to strengthen trust and organizational maturity.
Mentorship, Institutional Learning, and Feedback Loops
Cowen points to mentorship as a cornerstone of his development. He credits formal mentors like Dr. Norman Francis, who served as president of Xavier University for 50 years and received presidential recognition for his contributions to higher education, as well as informal guides and peers—including his students and faculty colleagues—for shaping his leadership philosophy.
He also emphasizes the importance of creating institutional cultures where feedback is normalized and welcomed, especially for those in senior roles. Leaders who insulate themselves from critique, he argues, lose their effectiveness long before they realize it.
Throughout the conversation, Cowen returns to the idea that great institutions produce great leaders not just through academic training, but by creating environments that reward curiosity, encourage feedback, and challenge assumptions at every level of the institution.
Leadership Transitions and the Final Chapter of Service
In the closing section of his book Lead and Succeed, Cowen tackles a rarely addressed leadership challenge: knowing when to step aside. At 78 years old, reflecting on his career, he discusses the internal and external signals that leaders must recognize when their effectiveness begins to wane or when the institution would benefit from new energy or perspective.
Cowen emphasizes that retirement or exit should not be viewed as an admission of failure or loss of relevance. Instead, he frames it as an essential part of the leadership lifecycle — one that models integrity, humility, and a commitment to the institutional mission above personal position. He calls on boards and presidents to normalize transition planning and to treat succession as a strategic responsibility, not an operational afterthought.
For institutions with aging leadership or those undergoing generational shifts in governance, Cowen’s perspective offers a framework for thoughtful, respectful, and effective change management at the top.
Expanding the Leadership Talent Pipeline Beyond Administrators
While much of the episode centers on student development and presidential leadership, Cowen also touches on the importance of cultivating leadership at all institutional levels. From department chairs to mid-level administrators, institutions often overlook the need to support professionals in navigating decision-making, cross-functional collaboration, and internal politics.
He recommends that institutions develop internal leadership pipelines that include mentoring, leadership rotation programs, structured feedback loops, and opportunities for early-career staff to engage in campus governance. This approach ensures leadership is not concentrated at the top and helps develop a culture of initiative, accountability, and problem-solving across the organization.
Building an Institutional Culture That Reinforces Leadership Values
Throughout the episode, Cowen and McNaughton highlight that individual efforts must be supported by institutional culture. Without reinforcement, even well-designed programs will fail to yield long-term benefits. Cowen offers practical examples of how institutions can embed leadership principles into performance reviews, governance practices, course design, and hiring criteria.
He stresses that culture is not built through slogans or standalone initiatives. It is cultivated through behavior modeling, resource alignment, and leadership consistency over time. Institutions that prioritize these elements will be better positioned to produce graduates and professionals capable of leading both within and beyond academia.
Three Takeaways for Higher Education Presidents, Boards, and Academic Administrators
- Formalize leadership education across the institution with measurable outcomes. Establish structured courses, mentoring programs, and reflection practices integrated into the academic curriculum and undergraduate experiences. Create leadership tracks within general education requirements, assign specific learning outcomes (such as emotional intelligence competencies), and assess leadership development using the same rigor applied to other academic disciplines. Move beyond informal leadership assumptions by implementing leadership rotation programs for staff and creating formal mentorship matching systems.
- Implement repeatable leadership practices during times of disruption with specific protocols. Adopt Cowen’s “thinking out loud” strategy by establishing daily leadership team meetings with documented goal-setting, creating evening communication protocols that summarize progress and challenges, and maintaining transparent, regular communication channels during crises. Develop template frameworks for crisis communication that can be activated quickly, and train leadership teams on consistent messaging and decision-making processes.
- Develop comprehensive succession planning as a long-term institutional strategy with defined timelines. Leadership transitions should not be reactive but part of a 3-5 year planning cycle that includes leadership pipeline development, knowledge transfer protocols, and institutional continuity planning. Boards should establish succession planning committees, create leadership development tracks for potential internal candidates, and incorporate transition conversations into annual strategic planning. Model responsible leadership exists that prioritizes institutional health over individual legacy.
Quick Overview: How Institutions Can Prepare Students and Staff for Leadership
- Tulane created a formal for-credit leadership course after Cowen’s presidency, which served as the basis for Lead and Succeed, a workbook model now used at Case Western (130 students) and other institutions.
- Cowen advocates for starting leadership education in high school and continuing it through the undergraduate curriculum with measurable learning outcomes.
- The “thinking out loud” leadership model was implemented during Tulane’s 8-month hotel operation in Houston post-Hurricane Katrina and readopted at Case Western during the COVID-19 pandemic, emphasizing daily goal-setting and transparent communication.
- Leadership traits identified by McNaughton as critical include: humility, resilience, transparency, adaptability, and emotional intelligence — all teachable behavioral competencies.
- Cowen rejects the “born leader” narrative and frames leadership as a set of behaviors that can be taught, modeled, and assessed through structured programming.
- Mentorship relationships, including Cowen’s connection with 50-year Xavier University president Dr. Norman Francis, are emphasized as core leadership development tools requiring formal institutional support.
- The final chapter of Cowen’s book addresses succession planning, reflecting his own transition considerations at age 78 and the importance of modeling responsible leadership exits.
- Academic curriculum integration requires structured leadership pathways with measurable learning outcomes.
- Institutions are encouraged to build cross-level leadership pipelines through rotation programs, structured feedback systems, and governance participation opportunities.
- Culture change requires consistent behavior modeling, policy alignment, and resource commitment—not isolated programs or slogans.
About Our Podcast Guest
Scott Cowen has taught and written extensively on leadership, served at the helm of large organizations in both higher education and the corporate sector, led two universities through major crises (Tulane University during Hurricane Katrina and Case Western Reserve University during the COVID-19 pandemic), was a leader in the transformation of public K–12 education in New Orleans, and has served on many for-profit and nonprofit boards. Time magazine named Cowen one of the nation’s Top 10 Best College Presidents and he was appointed to the White House Council for Community Solutions by President Barack Obama. He is a former chair of the Association of American Universities and a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. Cowen is the recipient of several national awards, including the Carnegie Corporation Academic Leadership Award and TIAA-CREF Theodore M. Hesburgh Award for Leadership Excellence in Higher Education.
About the Host
Dr. Drumm McNaughton is the founder, CEO, and Principal Consultant at The Change Leader, Inc. A highly sought-after higher education consultant with 20+ years of experience, Dr. McNaughton works with leadership, management, and boards of both U.S. and international institutions. His expertise spans key areas, including accreditation, governance, strategic planning, presidential onboarding, mergers, acquisitions, and strategic alliances. Dr. McNaughton’s approach combines a holistic methodology with a deep understanding of the contemporary and evolving challenges facing higher education institutions worldwide, ensuring his clients succeed in their mission.
Read the Podcast Transcript →
Transcript: Changing Higher Ed podcast 262 – with host Dr. Drumm McNaughton and guest Dr. Scott Cowen
Introduction to Changing Higher Ed®
Welcome to Changing Higher Ed®, a podcast dedicated to helping higher education leaders improve their institutions. With your host, Dr. Drumm McNaughton, CEO of The Change Leader, a consultancy that helps higher ed leaders holistically transform their institutions. Learn more at changinghighered.com. And now, here’s your host, Drumm McNaughton.
[00:00:20] Introduction to Guest and Background
Drumm McNaughton: Thank you, David.
My guest today is Dr. Scott Cowan, president Emeritus of Tulane University, where he served as its 14th president for 16 years. Scott is synonymous with leadership during crises. He shepherded New Orleans recovery from Hurricane Katrina and led the efforts to transform Tulane New Orleans K 12 public schools and its healthcare system.
There are a few people who are well qualified to talk about leadership, as is Scott. He’s written books on it, but more importantly, he’s lived it, and Scott joins me today to talk about his new book, “Lead and Succeed, Proven Strategies to Develop and Enhance Leadership Skills for Recent Graduates and Early Career Professionals”, and how institution leaders can help them in this regard.
Scott, welcome back to the program. My gosh, it has been a long time.
Scott Cowan: I’m delighted to be here with an old friend.
Drumm McNaughton: Thank you, sir. I feel the same way. It’s an honor to be here. You have done so many incredible things in your career, not only with Tulane, but the city of New Orleans, the school district here, but we’re not here to talk about that, we could for quite a long time.
Yes. What I really want to do is talk about your new book that’s coming out, “Lead and Succeed, Proven Strategies to Develop and Enhance Leadership Skills for Recent Graduates and Early Career Professionals“. I’m excited to read the book when it comes out. It’ll be coming out here shortly, I think, right?
Scott Cowan: Yep.
[00:01:53] Scott Cowan’s Background and Early Leadership
Drumm McNaughton: If you would give us a little bit of your background. I know you teach leadership, you’ve done it at Tulane, you’ve done it at Case Western. Give us a little bit of your background.
Scott Cowan: I was born and raised in New Jersey, so I’m a Jersey boy through and through, and you can think about what that really means right there. And when I was at Metuchen school, which is where I was, no one knew by the way at the time, and I had dyslexia at that time, but I did quite well there. I was head of the football team, I was head of the student body, so I started leadership at those times. And then when I finished with Metuchen, I went to the University of Connecticut.
I really liked Connecticut. Unfortunately, as it turned out, I got hurt and couldn’t play the whole time that I was there. But they were kind enough to keep me there the entire time when I was at Yukon.
Drumm McNaughton: This was your undergraduate, right?
Scott Cowan: This is my undergraduate, yes.
Then, you may recall about that time right after was Vietnam and what was going on in Vietnam, and I was very concerned that I would be taken there. So what I decided instead was, I jumped in myself to be an officer, but about a week before I was supposed to go to Vietnam, the captain came to see me. He said, you’re not going to Vietnam”. I said, “well, where am I going”? He said, “we’ll tell you the day you go, we’ll give you the thing”.
Drumm McNaughton: Welcome to the Army.
Scott Cowan: Yes, welcome to the army. But about a week later, he says, “you’re going to Turkey”. I said, “what am I going to do in Turkey”? He said, “you go there”. And I can’t even tell you all the things why I was there, but you can imagine why I was there, especially since Russia was not too far away.
Drumm McNaughton: So, what you’re telling me then is the basis for your leadership training was in the Army.
Scott Cowan: Absolutely 100%. And when that finished, I then went on to go get my MBA degree and my DBA degree, and I did that at George Washington University.
Drumm McNaughton: So, let’s fast forward a little bit. Okay. You were in the Army.
You got your leadership training and basis for your leadership training there.
Scott Cowan: Absolutely. Yes.
Drumm McNaughton: You went back and got your graduate degrees, your MBA and your DBA.
Scott Cowan: Yes.
[00:04:09] Cowen’s Journey Through Higher Education
Drumm McNaughton: Where did you start out your higher ed career? And how did you get to Tulane and then Case Western?
Scott Cowan: So the first school I got a job on, after I got my B, d, A and everything else after I got that was Bucknell.
I went to Bucknell University, and I was treating finance and economics and some other things. After the second year, the dean calls me in and he says to me, “it is time for you to leave”. I said, “I don’t understand. Did I do something wrong”? He said, “no”. He said, “you are too good for this place. You need to go someplace else. You need to be at a major research university”. Wow. And I wound up at Case Western Reserve University. That’s how I wound up there.
Drumm McNaughton: That’s a pretty good school.
Scott Cowan: Yes, that was alright. So, Case Western Reserve, I was there and a 38(yo) at Case Western Reserve at the business school. Then what happened was I got an offer to go to Tulane University, and the reason I even thought about it is one of our donors, very big donors at Case, wanted me to go and I said, “I don’t know about being a president of a university.”
At the same time, the president of Case Western was going to leave. So, the board called me and said, you are going to be a candidate to be president of Case Western Reserve University. I said to them, “by the way, I have another opportunity to go to Tulane University”. But to be very honest with you, I didn’t think they were going to take me, I was a guy who went to these schools. I didn’t go to the Harvard and all those.
So, people at Tulane said, “you gotta go”. I said, “the guys I’m going to run against are women are from Harvard, Yale, everybody else, I’m a schmuck. Over there it’s not going to happen”. So, I go over there and I say, “you know what? I got nothing else to lose other than I’m not going to do it”, and so on.
Lo and behold, I get the job. Case Western Reserve calls me and says, “Hey, listen, we really want you here”? I said, “listen, I got, I just got an offer for Tulane University and you’re just telling me maybe I’ll be there, not going to work for me. I’ll take that job there”.
Drumm McNaughton: Okay.
[00:06:29] Leadership During Crisis: Hurricane Katrina
Drumm McNaughton: You came into Tulane?
Scott Cowan: Yep.
Drumm McNaughton: How long after you were at Tulane, did Katrina hit?
Scott Cowan: Five years?
Drumm McNaughton: So, you got to Tulane in about 2000, Katrina hit 2005.
Scott Cowan: Five, right.
Drumm McNaughton: I remember talking to you about that, where you were running Tulane out of a hotel room in Houston for eight months.
Scott Cowan: Yes.
Drumm McNaughton: So that was there that you also taught leadership?
Scott Cowan: Not at that time, I did not.
Drumm McNaughton: Well, not at that time, but later on. After you stepped down?
Scott Cowan: Yes, later on. Yes.
Drumm McNaughton: And then you’ve also taught at Case Western. Your first book, and I love the title “Winnebagos on Wednesdays, How Visionary Leadership Can Transform Higher Education“. That speaks to what’s going on right now because higher ed is horrible when it comes to training leaders, generally.
Scott Cowan: I agree.
Drumm McNaughton: So, what’s the premise behind that book?
Scott Cowan: Winnebagos, I was thinking, this is what’s happening in the world. This guy wants to go because he just wants to be over there because he’ll be there all the time with the team. And I’m thinking to myself, really, this guy is taking it walking away there, because over there they’ll have Winnebagos and everything before the games and it’ll be terrific.
That’s how it started. And when I said Winnebagos on Wednesday, everybody says “that’s a really thing”. I said, “read the book and you’ll understand why”. The guy comes to me and he says, “oh, I gotta take it because it’s Winnebagos on Wednesday”. I said, “what do you mean”? Then he explains it to me. I figured, you know what, this guy’s gotta go, he’s not going to stay here.
Drumm McNaughton: Yes. Well, for the listeners who haven’t read the book, Scott, what you told me before was your head football coach, shortly after you arrived at Tulane, and you had a fabulous football program at the time, which I’m a little upset because, Tulane has come back and they’ve got a good program and they beat Navy this year, which is my alma mater. So, we’ll talk about it another time. But your football coach came in and said, I’m moving to another program. And you were going to offer him more money and everything else.
He said “no, I want to be at a program where the boosters and the donors and everybody else drive their Winnebagos to the parking lot on Wednesdays because they’re so excited about the football game coming up, and I can understand why you’d say, you need to go.
Scott Cowan: Yes, that’s exactly true. And it’s always been to say, this is the way the world is now.
This is what happens.
[00:09:05] Insights on Leadership and New Book
Drumm McNaughton: So, let’s talk about your new book. It’s a different focus. Why is this book important now?
Scott Cowan: Well, I think there’s two reasons why, and this is obviously just me talking, but I worry about the quality of leadership we have in our own country and around the world.
And what I always wanted is to make sure that they start learning about leadership, certainly in college, but maybe in high school. Why not have it? because I’ll tell you why.
When I was in high school, so supposedly I was a leader, right? No, I didn’t know what to do, what would it look like. I didn’t know any of those things because nobody told me. And that really got me going about the book to say that’s what I want. I want them to learn when they’re high school, college, or maybe been out a few years, to learn about leadership. And make sure that they do a better job in what they’re going to do than my generation or the current generation is right now.
So that’s what really got me going into it. Then I decided at Tulane University, I’m going to do a course on leadership. I hadn’t studied the topic. I’d read a lot of books and so on. They didn’t have a class before on leadership. So, I put one together and this was actually after I wasn’t president. I was just a, faculty member there and so on. And it was very popular on the campus and I enjoyed it because it forced me to remember things and think about things that I didn’t know before with the students itself.
Drumm McNaughton: That’s great. Now there’s some great takeaways from the book and you already started talking about one of them.
In high school, people are quote “leaders” there and we come to understand, the research and all these other things, but we come to understand that leaders aren’t born. They grow over time. It’s through the personal relationships.
Scott Cowan: Absolutely.
Drumm McNaughton: And most importantly, I think how they respond to challenges.
Scott Cowan: Exactly. Both, things. The first one that you just mentioned is there. People get to decide from the day you were born, you’re going to be a leader, because you go into a family, you have a family house, whatever it may be, it’s all bullshit. It isn’t. As matter of fact, most of those people that had come from really, that were not good leaders at all.
So first thing is to make them understand you don’t grow with this thing, you do it by learning about it and going through it. So that was very, very important to me. And I don’t know about in your thing, but at both Tulane and Case Western, well, Case had a leadership class before I came in. Tulane didn’t, we developed that one. What’s interesting is in the class, now I have it at Case, and I have 130 students in it.
Drumm McNaughton: Wow. So
Scott Cowan: on Tuesdays I do what I call the plenary service. Plenary. I do it myself, and I also bring in from time-to-time guests to come in. You know, Walter Isaacson was one of my guests.
Drumm McNaughton: Great man.
Scott Cowan: You know what? I may ask you to do it. And I mean it, you don’t have to come personally. You can do it Zoom.
Drumm McNaughton: I’d be honored
Scott Cowan: and have a conversation like we’re having here about leadership and, you know as much, if not more than I know about this topic.
So I feel this is important. And then that’s why I wanted all the time to say, you know what, now I want this in a book. And as you probably saw in the book, it’s a workbook. Yes. And I like that because it’s going to not only do they have to read it, then they have to think about it, what they learned from it, and what are they going to change about their own self to do it.
And there’s no book that I know of, leadership book, that has that, a workbook like this one.
Drumm McNaughton: That’s going to be very important as people start reading the book because they’re giving them exercises, giving them things to think about. One of the other things I thought was really important about characteristics of leadership for the future is humility, resilience, transparency, and possibly the most important one of those, the ability to adapt to change.
Now, of course, my wife is, very wise woman, and she says, “the only constant in this universe is change”. But humility, this is almost a forgotten characteristic. Yes. For many people nowadays.
Scott Cowan: Yes, I think all those things you just said is absolutely correct. It’s absolutely correct as we think, going forward.
Drumm McNaughton: Yes. So thinking back to your time at Tulane and hotel room, Houston, you had a team of folks that you were working with there. It wasn’t the “Scott Cowan Show”.
Scott Cowan: Not at all.
Drumm McNaughton: And you weren’t looking for the recognition, you weren’t looking for that. You just wanted to get one of the Grand Dom universities back up and running in New Orleans after having eight foot floods inside your auditoriums.
Scott Cowan: That’s absolutely correct. Listen, I had the best staff of people that anybody could imagine. What we did every day, I would get everybody together and I’d say, “what are our goals today? What do we have to get today to be able to have tomorrow”? Tomorrow, we start and say, “how’d we do with what we said yesterday”? And we had that going all the time. We really did.
The other thing is, and this is going to seem really weird to you. Every time there’s something like this, like Katrina, COVID, everything else I always think that there’s silver linings, in the creases, and I believe that, and I’m proud to say I did a lot of that at Tulane University, especially in public education. So if you’ve ever seen the act I’ve had there, matter of fact, there’s an institute there called the Cowan Institute for Publication.
We would’ve never done that if that hurricane hadn’t happened. Yes, so I learned a lesson about it and people would always say, “well, this, this is so on”. I said, “no, no, no. There’s gotta be silver linings here. I’m just going to sit here and say, well, this is what happened to, and nothing good can come out of it. Let’s think about what can come out of it”. I’m really proud of how I did that at Tulane, and even at Case Western Reserve when we had COVID.
My favorite one about the COVID is, you know what the big silver lighting is about the COVID in higher ed.
Drumm McNaughton: Please.
Scott Cowan: Zoom.
Drumm McNaughton: Yes, I would agree. Zoom online education.
Scott Cowan: Zoom. You and I would never have used, well, it was never talked about it, much less used it. Now everybody uses it all the time. So there was a silver lighting there.
Drumm McNaughton: Absolutely.
Scott Cowan: So I believe in that very strongly. I also believe in emotional intelligence. I assume you know all about, and Richard, who’s done it, is a good friend of mine and it’s about leadership and it’s in the book and so on. Emotional intelligence to me, if you don’t have it, you might as well throw it away. If you have it doesn’t mean that you’re still the best. You still got a lot of other things, but you’re on the right side.
Drumm McNaughton: Absolutely. One of those overlooked things. I know most people move into leadership positions because they think they’re the smartest person in the room.
[00:16:40] Mentorship and Lifelong Learning
Drumm McNaughton: There was one other thing in the book that really struck me, Scott, and that was the importance of having mentors to talk to. You relayed to me stories about your mentors. Please share with us.
Scott Cowan: I’m glad you mentioned that because I wouldn’t be here today talking to you if I didn’t have great mentors. Every place I’ve been. Even when I came to Tulane University, I had it. I don’t know if you ever heard of Norman Francis?
Drumm McNaughton: I have actually.
Scott Cowan: Yes. He’s African American.
He was president for I think 50 years at Xavier University.
Oh yes. He got one of the awards you can get from the President of the United States. And I am a big believer of those people who can help you, and I’ve had them all the time in my life. Even now I have them. And you know who they are now. My wife. No seriously, she’s smart as hell, she’s not afraid to yell at me and tell me when I’m doing, I’m not doing, and so on. And when I do class, she sits in the class.
But mentors to me are so, to this day, I, I look to people besides my wife that can, tell me something. And there’s a very young lady at Case Western, Tracy, and she’s great and she teaches with me and I’ve learned a lot from her. She’s, she’s a not up there, but she’s great in what she does, and I’ve learned some things from her. So I think that’s really important. It really does.
Drumm McNaughton: I’m glad you mentioned that because when I look at my own career, I’ve had mentors along the way, some formal, some informal. But I also look at these podcasts, we’ve done what, 260 of these podcasts so far. Every single guest that I’ve had on the podcast I’ve learned from. And the way that I look at it is if you’re not learning, you just ought to start dying.
Scott Cowan: Exactly. Exactly. To this, given my age right now, 78 years old, I always say to the students, to somebody, “Hey, what do you think? Do you have your own view of it? Did I screw this thing up and don’t be, just talk to me about it”. Absolutely. And that’s the way, maybe I’ll even live a longer, life. That we always have to be learners and leaders to the best we can. Absolutely. Yes.
Drumm McNaughton: I think also too, learning from others, you have to have humility to be able to do that, to believe, even if you know you’ve got an IQ of 150, there’s a lot of things that you can learn from other people. Absolutely.
And this to me is the whole point of diversity. It’s not, black and orange and purple and whatever the color of your skin, it’s the diversity of thought, diversity of experiences. These are really critical to be able to bring people together and say, “Hey, you’ve lived a diff different life than I have. I’d like to learn about it”.
Scott Cowan: Yep, absolutely. And you can learn from the kids by the way, also, all the time. Absolutely. And it’s one of the reasons why I put the work in there. I want them not just to read the thing. I want them to sit down and reflect on what they learned, and what are they going to do going forward about what they learned? And if I can get them to do that, I’ll feel like I did something important.
Drumm McNaughton: There’s one other piece before we wrap up that I really like to touch on. Sure. And that was something that I heard you talk about back in your days in the hotel room in Houston, is setting the course. What did we do yesterday? Here’s what we have to do today. This is one of those critical things that leaders have to do is build a shared vision.
Scott Cowan: Yep. You got it. That was right there. Plus. It also helped them, their morale, to be very honest with you. By the way, if they didn’t do it, I didn’t yell and say, “Hey, you didn’t do that. You’re an idiot. You can’t do that”. And I would say, “let’s think about that. Is there something else we could have done? We should have done what we’re going to do going forward”. And it wasn’t to say to someone, you didn’t do it or you didn’t do it right. It was, “Hey, listen, what do you think about it? Had you thought about, just like you’re asking me a question. Maybe you could think about this or this or something else”.
It’s interesting. The lawyer that I had at Tulane, she couldn’t get with the game plan. She was just, could not get with the game plan. And I said to her, “listen, you gotta get to the game plan. You’re thinking about the way life used to be. It’s changed. It’s different. And I’m not asking you to do anything that’s inappropriate to do anything else, but you gotta just stop about what we used to do and think about what we’re going to do in there”. Because once again, the silver linings, that’s always been in my mind, and especially because of Katrina. And I told her, “and if you can’t get it done in a few months, you’re done”. She turned around. She’s terrific.
Drumm McNaughton: And sometimes that’s what it is. As you say in your book, and we’ve talked about, being a leader doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re the person’s friend. You’re there to help them. Yes. Grow and through that, to help the institution grow.
Scott Cowan: Yep. Yep. That is absolutely correct.
Drumm McNaughton: Tell me about your “thinking out loud”. because I know that’s one of the key things that you do as far as building leaders and getting their input, which is also important.
Scott Cowan: Yes. Once this happens, every single day, I would write an email to everybody. Everybody. Wow. And tell them what we’re doing, what’s working, and what we still have to work on. Just virtually every day.
Drumm McNaughton: Was this from the hotel room in Houston or was this just part of your normal course? No,
Scott Cowan: no, that was started. That was
Drumm McNaughton: the crisis communications.
Scott Cowan: That’s right. because they were worried. They were worried about themselves, their homes and everything else.
Drumm McNaughton: Sure. So
Scott Cowan: my view was every single day put a note out and that turned to be very important then.
When I went to Case and it was COVID, I did it there all the time, called “Thinking Out Loud” and doing the same thing with them. The people there, to this day, still love that they say, “we still can’t get over the things you, told us about and so on and about the fact that they’re silver linings”.
We’re either going to be a victim or we’re going to be something else, and not, and I’m not a person who’s a victim, so we’re going to go the other way.
And they enjoyed it. And we would talk, we would get together every morning just like I did at Tulane, I did it there at COVID. And they always say, “we loved your things that you wrote”. They were so nice and so like you and I said, “I do the best I can do”.
Drumm McNaughton: Yes. During those periods of time, whether it was Tulane, whether it was Case, you gave people hope, you didn’t sugarcoat things, you didn’t say, oh gosh, our finances are great”, when they’re really not. You were honest, you were transparent, but you gave them hope and that’s what people need. Yes. Is to be given hope.
Scott Cowan: Yes.
No, there’s another, there’s one more question there you didn’t ask. And you’ll see the last chapter of my book was that question. And I’ve been, really thinking about a lot because, and I tell everybody I’m not as good as I used to be. I’m simply not. So the question is, do you just say goodbye, and go off into the, someplace else. I don’t know.
So I tell everybody, I worry about whether I’m as good as I used to be, and that bothers me. And if other people feel that way, they should tell it to me. But I think I’ve come to the point where I’ve probably contributed as much as I can contribute. The book being the last thing. And I don’t have many more years, and maybe it’s time to take those years and do things. That doesn’t mean that I may not do a cameo at one of the universities there, which I do anyway, I’ll do that. So that one’s a very important, especially for old people like me who have been leaders for a long, long time, rather than just ignoring the fact that you’re not as good as you used to be.
So that’s the only thing. Okay.
Drumm McNaughton: Well, thank you. That’s great. So, you preempted my, “what’s next for you” question. So, thank you.
We’ve had a really nice conversation and I appreciate your honesty and talking about the book, et cetera.
[00:25:10] Three Takeaways for Presidents, Boards, and Leaders.
Drumm McNaughton: Give me three takeaways for presidents and boards and leaders. What can they do to help build the leadership muscle that’s so needed in higher ed today?
Scott Cowan: It’s an. What does winning look like? I have a chapter there. I think the most important part is to sit down and answer the question you just asked me. It is, ” here we are, we’re getting through this and so on. What does winning really look like? What do you want to look like? Does the university want to get back? Does something else, want to get back? And so on”.
So I think the only answer I have for that one is, that’s one of the questions I always ask, and if someone can’t say it, and say, ” I’m not sure of this”. I ask them, “why not? Why do you not know or think about or talk about what does this look like for the future”? And I always do that for myself.
That’s why I’m thinking for myself, I should go a little different way. I don’t know that a lot of presidents think about that, but that’s one of the most important things in leadership, right? Leadership is to sit down and say, “what does the next thing look like? What can, what I do from there”? And that’s why I put a chapter in the book. So, I don’t know, that’s the answer to your question.
Drumm McNaughton: Very good. Scott, thank you so much for being on the program today.
Scott Cowan: Are you kidding me? I’ve had fun with this.
Drumm McNaughton: I have as well. I wish you guys all the best and I look forward to the next time our paths cross. And as far as your invite to come to your class, you just let me know. I’ll be there, sir.
Scott Cowan: All right. I’m counting on it now. Now, by the way, what topic would you like to talk about?
Drumm McNaughton: Whatever you want to talk about.
Scott Cowan: It’s going to be about leadership. And seriously, what’s the thing that you would say, I thought the most about this or whatever about this. Do you have one like that?
Drumm McNaughton: Yes. Authentic leadership.
Scott Cowan: Beautiful.
Drumm McNaughton: Authentic leadership,
Scott Cowan: Emotional intelligence. The man has got emotional intelligence.
Drumm McNaughton: I would like to think so. I don’t know. You’d have to ask my wife on that one.
Scott Cowan: Yes. No, that’s great.
Drumm McNaughton: Thanks for listening and a special thank you to my guest, Dr. Scott Cowan. Scott, it’s always a pleasure to have you on the show. I look forward to the next time our paths cross For my listeners, thanks again for tuning in. See you next week.
