Reduce Student Debt Risk and Improve Employability with Distributed Practicum:

Changing Higher Ed podcast 295 with host Dr. Drumm McNaughton and guest Jarred McNeely

Transcript: Changing Higher Ed podcast 295

Introduction to Changing Higher Ed^®

Welcome to Changing Higher Ed^®, a podcast dedicated to helping higher education leaders improve their institutions. With your host, Dr. Drumm McNaughton, CEO of The Change Leader, a consultancy that helps higher ed leaders holistically transform their institutions. Learn more at changinghighered.com. And now, here’s your host, Drumm McNaughton.

Transcript 296 – Jarred McNeely and Dr. Drumm McNaughton

[00:00:31] Introduction and Guest Welcome

Drumm McNaughton: Thank you, David. My guest today is Jarred McNeely, Provost and Chief Academic Officer at the Sonoran Desert Institute. Jarred has been advancing the quality of post-secondary education for over a decade. He’s got a really diverse background, eight years in the military service, served at key roles at the Colorado School of Trades, including facilities supervisor, director of education, school director. He’s managed large bodies of military and faculty and students. And what really attracted me to this is his extensive experience as an instructor both in the military and academic settings, enhances his leadership and educational innovation and the quality that he brings to SDI.

So you may ask why have a trade school CAO be on the podcast? There’s a lot of really great things that SDI and Jarred are doing that colleges and universities can take on board to improve how they can make students college experience better and how they can make their graduates more workforce ready. And Jarred joins me today to talk about all these things and more.

Jarred, welcome to the program.

Jarred McNeely: Drumm, thanks for having me on the program. It’s great to be here.

Drumm McNaughton: It’s my pleasure. I’m looking forward to a great conversation. We talked last week about what your institution, SDI, is doing, Sonoran Desert Institute. You’re really leading the way in doing workforce development in many respects.

[00:02:08] Jarred McNeely’s Background

Drumm McNaughton: Before we get into that, do me a favor, give our audience a little bit of your background. I’m curious to find out more.

Jarred McNeely: Sure. Yes. So I actually left high school and went to college on a track for a double major. And four years into that five year double major, I left college and went to the Army. And so I spent eight years in the Army on the reconnaissance side. A couple of tours to Iraq and a trip to Bosnia in that eight years.

So I got to see some interesting parts of the world and got to do some interesting things. But one of the things that I always loved in the Army was as a non-commissioned officer, I was training soldiers a lot of the time, and that just really resonated with me. So, as I left the Army, like many veterans do, I kind of wondered what I was going to do.

Finally ended up going back to school.

[00:02:55] Transition to Trade School

Jarred McNeely: I actually went back to trade school. I am a trade school product myself. Got my associates of Occupational Studies in Gunsmithing. But then still was kind of missing that part and piece of being able to reach into people’s lives and help them learn and help them gain knowledge and help them get a foot in a door into whatever it was they wanted to do.

So, had an opportunity to go back and start working in schools. Took that opportunity, started out, instructing and then worked my way up through running a facility and then ultimately ran a school for a while, an in-person school. And then very quickly realized that four walls make sure audience small.

And so how can we do this another way and reach students where they’re at, no matter where that is. So how do we remove the geographical influence of education? And so SDI became a wonderful opportunity.

[00:03:48] Joining Sonoran Desert Institute

Jarred McNeely: So I moved over to SDI just a little under five years ago, almost five years ago.

And it’s just such a great opportunity to take a trade school programs and deliver them in an online format. And so I’m sure we’ll talk more about that as we get into it, but it’s a great chance to meet students where they’re at and give them an opportunity to get out in the world and start producing for themselves.

Drumm McNaughton: And SDI does a really good job with that, of taking the physical and putting it into the virtual. Before we get into that, you guys have been doing a lot of other things as well besides just the trade stuff. You’re acquiring more institutions, just as a plug for later on, we’re going to do a podcast on the acquisitions that you’ve been doing and the processes.

So audience, stay tuned for that one, that’s going to be a really interesting one, especially if you’re looking at acquiring or even selling your institution. Enough commercials, let’s get back to the show.

[00:04:55] Impact of COVID on Education

Drumm McNaughton: So one of the things that I really liked when we were working together a little bit, a few months back was you had a thought, and I think it’s very valid that the COVID epidemic changed how we need to think about higher education and hands-on training.

Tell me more.

Jarred McNeely: Yes, absolutely. The COVID epidemic was a huge impact to higher education. I think any of us that, that worked in schools and lived through that would admit that it had a huge impact, a huge change to what we did. The interesting part about it is that point in my career where I looked back and said, now, wait a minute. At the time, I was in a state that said we needed to be closed and we were closed for six months. I’m sitting there thinking about, well, how are my students that were about to be graduates, how are they impacted? They’re having to stay home. They’re having to find jobs to continue to support themselves.

And those jobs aren’t necessarily in their field because they haven’t completed their credential, whatever that might be.

And so COVID really opened my eyes to how do we get around the four walls concept of education and higher education, and specifically how do we get around it in trade education?

[00:06:11] Innovations in Trade Education

Jarred McNeely: Well, you start to think about it and it’s like, okay, well how can I deliver a lab into someone’s living room? The beauty of trade education is that we’re using our hands, we’re doing something, right? Which is great for lots of people. It’s wonderful, I can’t speak highly enough about the lives that I’ve seen impacted with people learning about the trades and having a way to use their hands to, to make a living, right? But it’s hard to deliver online unless you get creative. Well, the other part to that is, and this, was brewing before COVID, but I think really brought it to the mainstream, is that we started to see some of the things both technologically and logistically that allowed for this to happen.

And so, during COVID deliveries to your home of groceries, or food, or Amazon, or whatever, happened, right? And they happened regularly and easily. It became a second nature type of thing to, to get your stuff that way. Right? And then we also all really leaned into the video conferencing platforms and being able to connect that way.

And the technology around those video platforms got better. Well, now if you think about it, if we take those advancements and we know, we’ve stress test them because we sent everybody home and made them use them that way. Well, why can’t we deliver education that way?

[00:07:34] Hands-On Learning at Home

Jarred McNeely: And so that’s really what we’re trying to push and do.

Drumm McNaughton: What you bring up are very valid points, especially around the COVID because it did change the way you think. I just read something that the UC San Diego, which is one of the top schools in the country, one out of eight students they get, can’t write. They, the mathematics. So, what we’re doing and what you’re doing there at SDI is critical, but it’s not just applicable to trade schools. It’s applicable to all schools, especially with the perception that higher education needs to change. It needs to be more workforce development, more training, things like that. I even read something today that Harvard, people are saying, oh, Harvard getting into workforce development. Well, unfortunately, or fortunately, the Trump administration has forced that hand, but who’s to say that they’re not going to do a fabulous job with it?

Jarred McNeely: That’s exactly right. You know, this is the mountain ledge that we stand on. And the choice is do we just stand there and look out at it? Or do we jump off? And so if you jump off, you can take what would be a typical education and turn it into something where you can reach students anywhere.

And that’s what’s so intriguing about it. I understand that not all programs are for all students. I understand that not all faculty members and all students get along, right? We all, we’ve all been in those situations, right?

Drumm McNaughton: You kidding me?

Jarred McNeely: Yes. Seriously. Yes. But the thing that it does do is it opens up that opportunity to put the right student and the right program and the right faculty member in front of the right student to get the best outcome. So, when you start thinking about that, it really opens up what we can do. Now we happen to apply it in a trade school method, but it doesn’t matter. I can take any hands-on project and put it in front of people out there in different programs, whether that’s a biology lab or a physics lab, we can do that stuff, it’s a matter of being creative and being willing to ask students to do those things as part of their education.

Drumm McNaughton: Sure.

[00:09:45] Challenges in Online Education

Drumm McNaughton: Now there are a lot of folks, it’s not nearly as many as used to, and when I taught both face-to-face and online, the pedagogy was different. We had to train people how to teach online and it becomes much more of a guide on the side versus a sage on the stage. Regardless, to train people to do this is critical, but you’re throwing in a whole nother level of challenges with, let’s just take healthcare or something like that.

How do you get the same kind of training that you would face to face? You can’t really stick a needle into a computer, can you?

Jarred McNeely: You can’t. You can’t.

[00:10:31] Simulation and Practicum in Training

Jarred McNeely: But you can do a lot of simulation work ahead of time. You start thinking about virtual reality work—

Drumm McNaughton: Good point.

Jarred McNeely: —simulation work, that type of thing. And then what you do, with some of those types of programs, healthcare is a great example, I’m by no means an expert in healthcare, but I’ve been around enough of these schools and programs to realize that at that point that’s where you probably tie in an internship or a, an apprenticeship or a practicum of some sort and get them out doing the live stuff after they’ve had the simulation practice.

Drumm McNaughton: Yes.

Jarred McNeely: So in that type of a situation, you may have to tie in a practicum type thing. In some of these trade jobs though, you can do all of that right in the home. It’s a matter of us conversing via a video platform just like we’re doing and grading that work of that student and having them point out what they’ve done and explaining, where they could make improvements, that type of thing. And so it, it just depends on what the program is as to whether you’re going to have to involve some face-to-face piece of it.

And some of them are required. And, maybe someday we’ll get around that, but there’s still going to be limitations. But in some of  them, it, none of it’s required. And so why aren’t we pushing the edge of the envelope to do it that way?

Drumm McNaughton: I agree. Give me an example, say like from biology or chemistry or something like that. Chemistry’s one of those, they go, okay, do you really want people in there trying to blow up their house at the same time?

Jarred McNeely: I’ll give you one from one of our programs. Let’s talk about our Uncrewed technology program. Uncrewed technology is drone work, right? We see a huge influx of these drones coming into the population who do various jobs. They’re just a tool, alright?

Drumm McNaughton: And you’re not talking about people droning on talking like you and I are doing right?

Jarred McNeely: Not at all. Not at all. I’m talking about the ones that fly around currently, although there are others that drive and work on the water, right.? But as you think about it, creativity becomes okay, we need to teach a student to fly the drone. Great. Let’s have them get their cell phone out. Let’s have them set their cell phone up to record themselves. And then let’s have them use a small indoor drone and do the maneuvers that we’ve asked them to do while recording themselves. And then submit the recording as their assignment. Then once they’ve mastered those, we can then move to a bigger drone that we step outside with. So on and so forth. And so if you’re creative about it, you can take those lab environments and put them right in their living room, and then progress from there. So same concept with let’s take a, an earth science class.

I, this is always my favorite example, I think I even used this one earlier. But the volcanoes that we all made in earth science, a little bit of baking soda, a little bit of vinegar, and I think that’s what the two were, but same idea, you’ve created an experiment that the student is doing at home.

It’s chemical reactions, it’s talking about earth science and we now have a lab in the student’s home, right? Now you’ve got to put the guardrails around that for it to be safe. All those types of things, but, that’s those intrinsic things that we can learn how to teach online and we can deliver online and they can still put the product together and submit it to us without having us be face to face.

Drumm McNaughton: That makes perfect sense. And one of those experiments is not to put sulfuric acid on your mom’s new range.

Jarred McNeely: Yes, yes. That would be a good, don’t do this,

Drumm McNaughton: we need guardrails around how we use this sulfuric acid. Now it’s interesting because when we were speaking last week, we talked about, as part of their course fees, you’ve got these experiments that are shipped to their home, or if they’re military, they’re shipped to wherever that military person is stationed or operating at the time.

That’s all part of the things that, as you’re designing these courses, you need to be thinking about.

Jarred McNeely: Yes, that’s correct. We work through a strenuous process on putting together these lab kits. We actually have a group that tests these. We’ll use beta course testers to test these kits. Sometimes that’s former graduates that have come back and said, hey, I’d love to see this new course and this new version. Can I test it for you? We have our faculty test them. So we put it through strenuous testing to see that these kits work. But we’ve got kits for all kinds of things, whether that’s a piloting class or we’ve got a class where they actually assemble a whole drone from parts and do work through all of the testing on that.

And so you’re working towards that flight engineer, test engineer type of curriculum, and so we put those kits together and get them out to the students, and then they use them in the classes.

Drumm McNaughton: That’s fascinating to me. It really is, because not only, take for instance, IT or computer management or something along those lines, sending the parts to a student and say, assemble this computer, do the testing that you need to do along the way to make sure everything functions. And your end product may be, write a three-page paper describing the process that you went through, what worked, what didn’t. So you’re adding a critical thinking element into it.

Jarred McNeely: Absolutely. Absolutely.

And happens to be, the three-page paper is a wonderful way to do it. It happens to be with a lot of ours, we ask them to shoot a video of them operating it or conducting the test because that’s more valuable to us. That just happens to be the industries that we’re in, and so a lot of our stuff is based that way. But you can tailor it to any of these industries. Your version’s a very good description of it, in that ITM.

Drumm McNaughton: And what I’m thinking about too, is when you take a look at the AACNU, what business owners and what employers say, the number one is working in teams, being able to think critically, analyze data, make draw conclusions, et cetera. These are all things that you can bring in, writing skills. These are all things that you can bring in. But it requires faculty and administration to change their thought process on how they do these kind of things.

Jarred McNeely: It absolutely does.

[00:17:02] Faculty Training and Development

Jarred McNeely: One of the things that is absolutely crucial to presenting these programs in this way, is being willing to train faculty to work through the unique challenges that come along with it. Sometimes that’s the technological challenges. Sometimes that’s being able to connect with a student at a distance.

And how do you mentor a student that is not in the classroom with you? There’s some different nuance to that. And sometimes that is just being able to provide the feedback that you need to provide in a way that is actually constructive and useful for that student. And so, building a faculty training process is something that we’ve focused on immensely to try to make our practitioners really good at helping those students along their educational journey.

Drumm McNaughton: And that is critical because, as I used to say years ago when I was leading faculty, anybody can be an instructor. You have to earn the title of teacher. To be able to do that, you have to have subject matter expertise. You have to be able to build relationships with students, whether it’s face-to-face or online, and you have to know how to mentor a student so that they learn what they need to learn.

The “teacher’s” earned.

Jarred McNeely: Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. It’s one of those terms that I think we struggle with at times. But it is definitely one of those things where a lot of us have gotten a lot of training in various areas. I have a master’s degree, I don’t remember anywhere in any of my training except in the military.

I did get a couple of short courses in the military on, on how to lead things from a training aspect. But in most cases, I wasn’t taught how to be a teacher. It’s something where I had to have the heart for it and go figure out how to help a student. Well, what we’ve tried to do is as much as possible, and nobody’s perfect at that, I don’t want to say that we’re perfect at it because we’re not. We still have our problems that arise at times. But we really try to get our faculty to be as close to a mentor for our students as possible.

Drumm McNaughton: Let’s talk about that process because I think that’s critical. Regardless of whether you’re teaching online or face-to-face or in a hybrid mode. How do you train faculty to become good teachers?

Jarred McNeely: Yes, so we work through a couple of pieces.

[00:19:22] Hiring Process for Faculty

Jarred McNeely: First off, it starts with a hiring process. We have a pretty strenuous hiring process where we not only want to know what that faculty has done, so we’re looking for their expertise in their field first. But we also want to find that wonderful blend of communication skills.

So we actually have them do a written interview first, which is not uncommon. But we sent out a few questions and they’re asked to write responses to those questions before we ever do a face-to-face interview. Because a lot of online education is done in the written form. And so can you deliver, good written communication that’s supportive but still ties in the feedback that you need to give.

And so that’s one of the steps that I think is an absolute key for us. Once they’re accepted into the training portion of our program, we actually spend about five weeks with our faculty, training them up on how to use the LMS, how to produce the announcements and information that they need to produce to give to their students.

We have standards that we hold them to, so we’ve got various engagement standards that we want them to have, they’ve got to be in our classrooms five days out of seven. They’ve got to be posting announcements three days a week. They, all of these different engagement standards.

And so we actually help them work through that in that five-week process. We also work with them on some of those tools for grading that are out there. Some of the concepts that we as old hat teachers have learned, how do I recognize when a student knows the material or doesn’t and or is maybe even regurgitating something that’s someone else’s work.

There’s ways to do that. And so we try to come alongside those individuals and build them up and learning those skills. Then once they’ve completed that five weeks successfully, some don’t. Some also get into it and realize, well, well this is a bit more that I wanted to sign on for. Right? And that’s fine. That’s great. That’s what we want to see happen. We don’t expect to be perfect with it.

[00:21:28] Faculty Mentorship Program

Jarred McNeely: We then actually send them into their first classroom with students, but we send them in with a mentor alongside them.

Drumm McNaughton: That’s really important.

Jarred McNeely: Yep. So we’ve got a lead faculty or a faculty supervisor that is walking alongside them during that first course, reviewing their responses to students, reviewing their feedback on assignments, checking to make sure that they’re making all standards.

Once they get through that first course, then they’re allowed to teach without direct oversight and so on and so forth. And then we review them annually and we hold trainings on various topics as we go through. And then we also, any of the other stuff that a good training and development team would do, we’re monthly, we’re sending out different topics that we want them to review.

About every six weeks we have a recorded session, where we talk through a topic. Some of the hot ones lately have been around AI and that usage in the classroom. But we record those so that the folks that can attend live, great. But if you can’t, you can catch it when you’re not, because we have a lot of adjunct faculty, so they’re working part-time.

Right.

[00:22:35] Ongoing Faculty Support

Drumm McNaughton: So, so with these, we’ve talked a lot about the faculty training and that. But it also requires great supportive administration. The willingness to provide faculty training, teaching people like you have with that, but it’s also providing the tools that faculty need to do this.

Let’s talk a little bit about that.

Jarred McNeely: Yes.

[00:22:58] Importance of Faculty Tools

Jarred McNeely: One of the big struggles with, some of the other programs that I’ve seen and talked to leaders in, is that the faculty are great faculty, but sometimes they’re an afterthought. There’s not a thought about the training that needs to go on. They just assume they can teach. And they just assume that they’re up to date on the subject matter, What I love about our administration is that, and again, this is trades based, so you know, I’ve got a little bit of a lensed version on this, when we get a new faculty member, they get the same parts and pieces kit, that same lab kit, the student gets. Because we want them to have the same tools and items that a student’s working with so that if a student runs into an issue and they jump on a video call with them, they can be holding the same parts and pieces to understand what the student’s going through.

And so, it’s those types of things that really stretch our ability to meet our students where they’re at.

Drumm McNaughton: All those things are critical. You say it’s trades based, but I would argue using an academic term, of course, I would argue that any kind of technical program can be outsourced in this same way. I really like your sending the building kit for the drones, or whatever it is, to the faculty. You don’t see a lot of faculty who get that kind of training and say you’re teaching chemistry online.

Why can’t you send all those kits to your faculty members and make them go through the same thing so they can understand how you can potentially blow up your house too?

Jarred McNeely: Exactly. Exactly. That’s the beauty of it. The closer we can get them to the student experience, the better off they’re going to be at guiding those students through the educational process.

Drumm McNaughton: You can’t judge a person until you’ve walked a mile in their shoes.

Jarred McNeely: Correct.

Drumm McNaughton: That’s it.

[00:25:00] Rethinking Higher Education

Drumm McNaughton: And all of this stuff, and I commend you because you’re doing some incredible things there at SDI, it requires all of us to think differently about higher education. A lot of people are asking the question, is higher ed worth it?

I would say absolutely yes, but it requires us taking a longer-term view and meeting the students where they are. And one of those big things is they don’t want debt.

Jarred McNeely: That’s a great point, Drumm. I think the conversation right now out in the world, out in our country is, there’s that question of whether higher ed is truly worth it. And it is. I’ve got a number of degrees. I value all of them. I value all of the knowledge that I gained over time.

I’ve been lucky. I’ve, had opportunities that some don’t.

[00:25:50] Stackable Credentials and Career Paths

Jarred McNeely: I think what’s interesting is that a lot of the students today are looking at it and they’re wondering about that debt and they’re wondering about, okay, is there an ROI here to use that good old business term, and so I think it requires us to start to rethink things as a higher ed community and how do we deliver items. And there’s been lots of talk about credentialing and stacked credentials and all of these things over time, but I think we’re really at a point now where the population that is coming into our schools, appreciates that a little bit more.

Think about it. You take a student, and again, I’m going to use my program because that’s what I’m most familiar with, but you take a student that comes and takes a four-course certificate, 16 credit hours, not super long, but that gets them prepared to go out and pilot a drone for a company.

Okay? They go out, they go take their licensing through the FAA, they’re now flying drones for a company. Okay. They do that for a couple years. They’re making a living. They don’t have any debt because it was a short program. Now they say, okay, well now I want to manage the fleet. Well, they come back and they take another 16 hours or 32 hours, and they get a little bit closer to an associate’s degree. But they’ve got these fleet management skills, so they’re managing the fleet for a company.

They’re still working. Right? They’re working this whole time. They’re making a living. They’re, being able to take care of themselves. And it just snowballs over, and that’s the beauty of a lot of these, a lot of these paths that we see. Very rarely do we see a graduate that goes into something and stays in that something for the rest of their career. The gold watch is kind of gone, right? Like, we’re not sitting in factories working for 40 or 50 years. We’re going to change our careers. Well, we got to take a longer term view and meet them with the amount of education they need at the right time.

Drumm McNaughton: And you gave a great example there about the drones. But if you wanted to take that even further, the military is making great use of the drones industry right now, real estate, doing the drones. Who designs the drones, you have to be able to design them, which requires education as an engineer, whether it be aeronautical or aerospace or whatever.

There’s got to be an education path. So, many institutions say, yes, we’ll do these stackable credentials to get your degree. But there isn’t the kind of thought that goes into those that says, great, you can keep working and work in this subject matter, work in this particular area, add to your knowledge skills to where you’re ready to step up.

We need to think about it in a, I wouldn’t say completely different way, but in a different way than we have so that kids can graduate without debt. They can be earning a living, going through, gaining that experience.

This is what people want.

Jarred McNeely: Absolutely.

[00:28:52] Adapting to Student Needs

Jarred McNeely: And it’s one of those things where as you talk through that hierarchy and you think about high school kids today, I’ve got a daughter who’s in high school, and she’s already looking at, well, what can I, what credits can I get while I’m in high school?

Alright, that’s awesome. That’s great. We’ve made a great stride there. The problem is she has no idea what she wants to do. She’s got tons of experiences. I run around every night of the week, I feel like, taking her to various things, but she still doesn’t have an idea what she wants to do.

So getting them into something where they can make a living for themselves, learn about an industry, and do it with a very low impact from the debt or cost perspective is really helpful to them because they may realize that they don’t love that industry. I opened up this telling you about my background of, I left a double major to go to the military because I didn’t love the path I was on.

Hooyah, right. Here we go. And it was a lot of fun, to go do that. But a part of that stemmed from I just didn’t know what I wanted to do. I didn’t have experience in the workforce to understand that I enjoyed this, I didn’t enjoy this, I was talented at it, I wasn’t talented at it. That type of thing. And so if we can get them those experiences while they’re still earning a living, and then let them build into it later. Man, oh man, oh man. Think about the power we can harness with those people coming in.

Drumm McNaughton: Absolutely. And I tell you, these kids coming in nowadays are way smarter than I ever was.

Jarred McNeely: I agree. I agree.

Drumm McNaughton: I hate to admit it, but that’s true.

Jarred McNeely: Well, and the thing that I think is amazing about, the younger generations than you and I, is that they don’t try to store the knowledge. They’re getting really good at how to find it. And that’s key. There’s just so much out there available, that’s key.

Drumm McNaughton: Well, I’ll give you an example and then we’ll wrap up because we’re right at the end of time here. I have a problem with the computer or I’m trying to figure out something, how to do it, type it into Google, what it is. Gives me the AI text. I can go through that step by step and say, that didn’t work.

Oh, that works— there we go. I don’t know all of these things, and frankly, I don’t have the brain capacity left to figure them out step by step.

The thing that I think about the education with that is having the understanding broad enough to where you can frame the questions as they need to be done and then be able to apply them and learn each step of the way.

[00:31:27] Critical Thinking and Problem Solving

Drumm McNaughton: I think that, to me is one of, if not the most critical skills out there that we need.

Jarred McNeely: Absolutely. And I would throw out the other critical skill is being able to identify what the problem is. A lot of people can’t even develop that problem first, and you sit and look at history and the great inventors, and they saw a problem and they came up with a way around it. Right? Well let’s spend time developing what the problem is and then we’ll figure out the way to get around it.

Drumm McNaughton: And that’s critical thinking at its finest.

Jarred McNeely: It is, it absolutely is.

Drumm McNaughton: Jarred, this has been a fascinating conversation for me. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your taking the time, coming on the show.

Jarred McNeely: Absolutely. I appreciate it, Drumm. It’s been great.

[00:32:11] Final Thoughts and Takeaways

Drumm McNaughton: As we always do, our last two questions, three takeaways for higher ed presidents and boards. What do they need to be thinking to either develop or transition their courses to where they’re more practical and workforce development type offerings?

Jarred McNeely: Yes, those three key takeaways are, number one, don’t shy away from those offerings. They really do provide opportunity for students and graduates. And they provide that opportunity to someone that likely would return as they need to grant gain more education. And so that’s probably number one.

Number two is don’t forget about those faculty members. Training those faculty really do impact the outcomes on your students. And so training them and allowing them to have the resources that they need is so, so key.

And number three is just be creative. We have got, it’s such a cool time in the world and we have so many opportunities in front of us and tools to use. Unleash that creativity and find that creative way to meet a student where they’re at because there’s opportunity out there.

Drumm McNaughton: Those are great takeaways. Thank you. I’m going to add one to what I generally don’t is start looking at education differently. You’ve got to meet your student where they are and what their needs are.

Jarred McNeely: Absolutely. That’s a great one.

[00:33:33] Conclusion and Farewell

Drumm McNaughton: What’s next for you?

Jarred McNeely: Yes, we’re going to continue to look at different trades. Like you mentioned early on, we’ve added some schools to our roster in the on ground truck driving space. And so those are new to us. But we’re going to continue to look at that trade education and what’s that next area that we can impact, along with that, we’re launching a revised version of our firearms programs in January. And so we’re hard at work making sure that all of that’s ready to go for the students. And that’s just going to be a great next step in the legacy of those programs.

So we’ll continue to look for those things and keep pushing forward to meet students where they’re at and get them the training that they want.

Drumm McNaughton: And hopefully you don’t teach them how to shoot themselves in the foot.

Sorry.

Jarred McNeely: Absolutely. Hopefully not, hopefully not.

Drumm McNaughton: And I have to wrap up with this, I apologize in advance, go Navy beat Army.

Jarred McNeely: Hey, you know what? I, having been in Iraq, I love them all. It doesn’t matter. We all were there together and it’s amazing what everybody can do when you get on the same team and start pushing forward.

Drumm McNaughton: Absolutely, and something that we all need to do a little bit more. Jarred, thank you so much. Appreciate your time today. Wish you guys all the best there at SDI.

Jarred McNeely: Thanks Drumm.

Drumm McNaughton: Thanks for listening today and a special thank you to my guest, Jarred McNeely, the Provost and CAO at Sonoran Desert Institute. Jarred, had a great conversation, thank you so much for being on the show. I look forward to the next time our paths cross.

To my listeners, thanks again for tuning in. See you next week.