February 10, 2026 · Episode 298
The Data Exists, You're Just Not Using It — Tracking Stop-Outs, Transfers, and ROI Across the Full Student Journey
36 Min · By Dr. Drumm McNaughton
Are you using the wealth of data already available to prove student ROI, track transfers, recapture stop-outs, and meet rising accountability demands head on?
Higher education is sitting on one of the most powerful data assets in the country and most institutions aren’t using it. While colleges and universities debate their purpose, wrestle with declining public confidence, and face mounting pressure to demonstrate value, the National Student Clearinghouse quietly tracks the educational journeys of nearly every postsecondary student in the United States. The question for institutional leaders is not whether this data exists, but whether they are using it to make better decisions.
This conversation draws on the perspective of Melba Amissi, Chief Customer and Operations Officer at the National Student Clearinghouse. Amissi brings a career rooted in financial services, fraud analytics, cybersecurity, and operational transformation, entering higher education only three years ago. That outside perspective is the point. Higher education has long been insular, resistant to voices from beyond its walls. Amissi’s experience building data-driven systems in industries that demand measurable outcomes offers a lens that higher education leadership would benefit from applying to its own challenges.
The central argument is this: institutions that fail to embrace data-driven transparency, flexible student pathways, and workforce alignment are not just falling behind operationally. They are undermining the public trust that sustains higher education as a sector.
The Clearinghouse as a Strategic Asset, Not Just a Compliance Tool
Most institutional leaders know the National Student Clearinghouse through its compliance function, processing enrollment reporting to the Department of Education’s National Student Loan Data System (NSLDS) to meet Title IV requirements. That is the baseline. What many leaders underutilize is the Clearinghouse’s capacity to provide cross-institutional benchmarking, student pathway analysis, and completion data that spans state lines and institutional types.
The Clearinghouse aggregates data from thousands of institutions, offering visibility into where students come from, where they transfer, where they stop out, and where they complete. Products like StudentTracker enable institutions to see student movement and completion patterns that no single campus could generate on its own. This data is cited regularly by major publications including the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, and Washington Post, as well as by organizations such as Achieving the Dream and Jobs for the Future that directly support learner success.
For presidents and boards, the implication is straightforward: the Clearinghouse is not merely a compliance intermediary. It is a strategic intelligence resource. Institutions that treat it as such gain access to benchmarking against peer institutions, visibility into regional and national enrollment trends, and data to support program design and resource allocation decisions.
The 42 Million Student Problem
The scale of the stop-out population in American higher education is staggering. As noted in a recent conversation with Courtney Brown, Vice President for Research at Lumina Foundation, there are approximately 41.9 million adults in the United States who have some college credit but no credential. That number is likely closer to 43 million today and growing.
These are not traditional students. They are working adults, caregivers, career changers, and veterans. They have different schedules, different financial constraints, and different expectations of what higher education should deliver. Fitting them into structures designed for 18-year-olds entering four-year residential programs is a structural mismatch that institutions can no longer afford to ignore.
Serving this population requires institutions to fundamentally rethink how they operate. This means expanding flexible learning through online, hybrid, weekend, and evening course options. It means implementing robust prior learning assessment policies that grant credit for work experience, military service, and industry certifications. It means building entry and exit points within programs so that students who stop out can return without starting over.
The Clearinghouse data makes this population visible. Whether institutions choose to act on that visibility is a leadership decision.
Credit Mobility and the Articulation Gap
One of the most persistent barriers to student completion is the loss of credits during transfer. Students who move between institutions frequently discover that coursework completed at one school does not count at another, adding time, cost, and frustration to an already difficult journey.
Franklin University stands as a notable exception. With articulation agreements spanning more than 1,400 institutions, Franklin has built a system where transfer students can learn within five minutes of applying how many of their existing credits will be accepted. The entire credit evaluation process is pre-mapped, eliminating the traditional bottleneck of sending transcripts to individual faculty for manual review.
At the state level, Oregon has made significant strides in creating systemwide credit transfer frameworks. A growing number of startups are also entering the credit articulation space, recognizing that the scale of the stop-out population has created both urgency and market demand for better solutions. Registrars have historically managed this process manually, but the volume of non-traditional students returning to higher education makes that approach unsustainable.
For institutional leaders, the takeaway is clear: credit mobility is not an administrative convenience. It is a competitive necessity. Students making enrollment decisions will increasingly gravitate toward institutions that respect prior learning and minimize redundancy.
Workforce Alignment Is Not Optional
The tension between liberal education and workforce readiness is one of the oldest debates in higher education. The current environment has made it a practical imperative rather than a philosophical one. The Workforce Pell discussions, in which the Clearinghouse participated as an observer during negotiated rulemaking, reveal a federal posture that increasingly ties funding to employment outcomes. The current administration’s push to return regulatory authority to states further intensifies the pressure on institutions to demonstrate that graduates can secure employment that justifies the cost of their education.
This does not mean abandoning the broader purposes of higher education. Both the host and guest in this conversation emphasized that workforce preparation should be an “and,” not an “or.” Institutions can and should prepare students for careers while also developing critical thinking, civic engagement, and adaptability. The AAC&U’s most recent employer survey supports this position, with approximately 70 percent of employers affirming that higher education is worth the investment and doing a good job of preparing graduates.
The challenge is pace. Technology, and artificial intelligence in particular, is transforming the job market faster than traditional four-year curricula can adapt. Jobs that freshmen train for may not exist by graduation. This reality demands that institutions embed shorter-term, stackable credentials within degree programs, strengthen employer partnerships, and continuously reassess program alignment with labor market demand.
Paul Quinn College offers a compelling model. The institution has built a work-integrated program where freshmen and sophomores work as campus employees, while juniors and seniors are placed with corporate partners such as Southwest Airlines. Students earn wages that offset tuition and fees while gaining industry experience and professional connections. The state of Tennessee has pursued a complementary approach, building talent pipelines that articulate student competencies directly to state agencies and local employers, enabling graduates to transition immediately into roles that match their validated skills.
These are not isolated experiments. They represent a directional shift that institutional leaders must evaluate and, where appropriate, adopt.
The Cost Crisis and the Transparency Imperative
Public skepticism toward higher education is driven primarily by cost. Tuition has grown roughly 75 percent over the past two decades. The Higher Education Price Index rose 3.6 percent in 2025, exceeding general inflation. Institutions face a compounding problem: the very systems required to operate, from student information systems to administrative infrastructure, are priced using the same index, creating an upward cost spiral that is difficult to break.
For a 17- or 18-year-old student, or their parents, confronting a sticker price approaching $95,000 per year at some institutions, the value proposition of higher education is not self-evident. The data may show that degree holders earn three times more over a lifetime than those without degrees, but that aggregate statistic provides little comfort to families weighing immediate debt against uncertain future returns.
The federal government is beginning to force the issue. The Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA) will now include warnings for students expressing interest in institutions where expected earnings may not justify the cost of attendance. Approximately 23 percent of institutions are expected to fall into this warning category. While these schools enroll fewer than three percent of total undergraduates and account for two percent of FAFSA funds, the signal to the broader sector is clear: accountability and transparency are no longer optional.
Post-Secondary Economic Outcomes (PSEO) data is adding another layer of visibility, showing earnings by degree type and institution. The Clearinghouse is increasingly being asked to integrate wage data to enable cross-state comparisons of graduate outcomes. Institutions that proactively share graduation rates, employment outcomes, and student debt data will be better positioned to build trust. Those that wait for mandated disclosure risk being defined by metrics they did not choose.
What Gordon Gee Said Still Holds
When former West Virginia University President E. Gordon Gee appeared on this program at the beginning of COVID, he observed that the pandemic was accelerating needed changes in higher education by a decade or more. That assessment has proven accurate and, if anything, conservative. The pandemic forced rapid adoption of flexible delivery models. Artificial intelligence is now accelerating the transformation of both pedagogy and the labor market. Political and public pressure for accountability shows no signs of easing.
The institutions that thrive will be those whose leaders treat this moment not as a series of external shocks to be weathered, but as a structural shift that demands strategic redesign. The Clearinghouse data, the examples of institutions like Franklin University, Paul Quinn College, and Miami-Dade College’s partnership with Microsoft on cybersecurity workforce development, and the policy environment all point in the same direction: higher education must demonstrate measurable value through transparent data, flexible pathways, and workforce alignment.
Three Takeaways for University Presidents and Boards
- Transparency is no longer a best practice; it is a survival strategy. Institutions must proactively share data on graduation rates, employment outcomes, and student debt to maintain public trust and preempt regulatory mandates.
- Credit mobility and flexible pathways are competitive imperatives. With over 42 million adults holding some college credit but no credential, institutions that make it easy to return, transfer, and complete will capture enrollment that others lose.
- Workforce alignment must be embedded in institutional strategy, not bolted on. Employer partnerships, stackable credentials, and continuous program assessment are essential to demonstrating the return on investment that students, families, and policymakers now demand.
Bonus Takeaway from Dr. McNaughton: Embrace diverse and non-linear student pathways. The traditional linear journey from high school to a four-year degree is no longer the norm. Institutions must design systems that serve students from all walks of life and keep the focus squarely on student outcomes.
Quick Overview
- The National Student Clearinghouse is a strategic asset, not just a compliance tool
- Approximately 42 million Americans have some college but no credential
- Credit mobility and articulation agreements are competitive necessities
- Workforce alignment is an “and,” not an “or” alongside liberal education
- The FAFSA will now warn students about institutions with poor earnings-to-cost ratios
- Innovative models like Paul Quinn College and Tennessee’s talent pipelines demonstrate what is possible
- Cost remains the primary driver of public skepticism toward higher education
- Institutions that lead on transparency will build trust; those that wait will be defined by others
- AI and technology are accelerating the pace of change faster than traditional curricula can adapt
- Data-driven decision-making is no longer optional for institutional leadership
This conversation provides higher education leaders with a clear framework for leveraging national data assets, redesigning student pathways, and demonstrating institutional value in an environment where accountability is no longer negotiable. The Clearinghouse data is available. The question is whether leadership will use it.
About Our Podcast Guest
Melba Amissi is a seasoned leader with extensive experience driving operational excellence and customer success in complex organizations. As Chief Customer and Operations Officer, Melba oversees strategic initiatives that enhance efficiency, elevate the customer experience, and foster innovation across teams. With a passion for transforming processes and building collaborative cultures, Melba brings a unique perspective on how higher education can adapt to meet evolving learner and institutional needs. Known for aligning operational strategies with long-term vision, Melba has led initiatives that streamline workflows, improve service delivery, and create sustainable growth. Melba is committed to advancing conversations around student success, operational agility, and the future of education.
Connect with Melba Amissi on LinkedIn →
About the Host
Dr. Drumm McNaughton is the founder, CEO, and Principal Consultant at The Change Leader, Inc. A highly sought-after higher education consultant with 20+ years of experience, Dr. McNaughton works with leadership, management, and boards of both U.S. and international institutions. His expertise spans key areas, including accreditation, governance, strategic planning, presidential onboarding, mergers, acquisitions, and strategic alliances. Dr. McNaughton’s approach combines a holistic methodology with a deep understanding of the contemporary and evolving challenges facing higher education institutions worldwide to ensure his clients succeed in their mission.
Read the Podcast Transcript →
Transcript: Changing Higher Ed podcast 298
Introduction to Changing Higher Ed®
Welcome to Changing Higher Ed®, a podcast dedicated to helping higher education leaders improve their institutions. With your host, Dr. Drumm McNaughton, CEO of The Change Leader, a consultancy that helps higher ed leaders holistically transform their institutions. Learn more at changinghighered.com. And now, here’s your host, Drumm McNaughton.
[00:00:31] Introduction and Guest Welcome
Drumm McNaughton: Thank you, David. My guest today is Melba Amissi, Chief Customer and Operations Officer at the National Student Clearinghouse. Melba is a seasoned leader with the extensive experience driving operational excellence and customer service in complex organization. She’s relatively new to higher ed. She’s been in higher ed for three years, but she has some incredible insights on how data can be guiding higher ed institutions.
She’s got a passion for transforming processes and building collaborative culture. And because of this coming from outside of higher ed, she brings a unique perspective on how higher education can adapt to meet the evolving learner and institutional needs. She joins me today to talk about the National Student Clearinghouse, its role in higher ed and what higher ed leaders need to be doing to improve the public perception of higher education. Melba, welcome to the program.
Melba Amissi: Thank you for having me today, Drumm. I’m looking very forward to our conversation today.
Drumm McNaughton: I am as well. You are the first person that I have ever met, let alone had on the podcast from the National Student Clearinghouse. I’m really looking forward to this to find out more about what you all do there and your insights, because you’ve got so much data to be able to drive insights in what higher ed needs to be doing. I’m really looking forward to that.
Melba Amissi: It is very critical for the National Student Clearinghouse to stay in the conversations. Being able to provide those insights and share them across higher ed, letting them know what is happening based on the data they’re sharing with us. We’re able to show benchmarking, able to share what’s happening across multiple types of institutions, not just one.
And so that’s why it’s so important for us to continue to share those insights.
[00:02:24] Melba’s Background
Drumm McNaughton: Before we get into, as you call it, The Clearinghouse, before we get into that, please for the listeners give us your background because you have a very non-traditional higher ed background, which I think is very beneficial to what you’re doing at the clearinghouse.
Melba Amissi: Certainly. I’ve spent most of my career in financial services, heavy in data mostly looking at where there is indicators of fraud across various types of industries. And doing that, I also was looking at it from a consumer perspective as well, and I’ve always been invested in how to better serve consumer population in their lives. And subsequent most of my career in operations from cybersecurity to product, to customer support, to IT, I’ve worked across multiple type of disciplines. And what brought me to the clearing house ultimately was, I wanted to be in an industry where I can make an impact. Use all of the skills that I’ve adapted over my year and how do I apply to an organization who’s also data rich, and how are they using that data to provide tangible impacts to communities around the United States who are in the ecosystem of higher ed.
And I’m just very fortunate that nine of the people who worked for me at my old organization are now at The Clearinghouse. When they said they were looking for a leader with transformation, they recommended me and that’s how I ended up at The Clearinghouse.
Drumm McNaughton: Wow. What a great recommendation. In our conversations I would say they were spot on. You are all about transformation.
Melba Amissi: Thank you, Drumm. I appreciate that. I appreciate that endorsment.
Drumm McNaughton: So with that, we are very insular in higher ed. We tend not to listen to people who are outside of higher ed. Now you’ve made that bridge. Before we get into some of the things that you’re observing, tell us about The Clearinghouse. What does The Clearinghouse do? Why is it so important, of the data that you’re gathering, to be able to analyze that and turn that around?
Melba Amissi: Clearinghouse serves a very unique role for higher education.
[00:04:30] Data and Compliance Reporting
Melba Amissi: The way in which data organizations entrust us with the data is one of the main things we do for them is their compliance reporting with the Department of Education. And so they provide us with their enrollment reporting, which includes a lot of different data elements in order to make sure they’re meeting the regulations and guidance of NSLDS within the Department of Higher ed is part of that enrollment—
Drumm McNaughton: I’m sorry I’m going to interrupt you. NSLDS?
Melba Amissi: NSLDS, National Student Loan Department. It’s where the Title IV funding is done.
Drumm McNaughton: Got it. Thank you.
[00:05:01] Student Pathways and Services
Melba Amissi: As part of that, we take that data and we’re able to look across multiple institutions, across multiple states, and we offer products and services that provide school with insights so they can see student pathways.
They can benefit from the research we do as we’re looking across different student populations, types of schools, two year, four year schools. We’re looking to see where students are coming into higher ed, where they’re leaving out, whether it’s early or they’re getting some credential, whether it’s a two year or four year.
But we also offer students transcript services. We also offer students the ability to verify they’re enrolled in a school, so they have access to things like student loans or different types of services where students get discounts, and then we also do degree verify, so we offer opportunity for background screening to verify students have gone to school and what they’ve achieved in order so they can be employed.
[00:05:56] Research and Policy Impact
Drumm McNaughton: You also arm the Department of Education with real data and facts. In today’s climate, that is so critical, especially with the cutbacks that we are seeing at the ED department.
Melba Amissi: Agreed we find that our research, which is very well known, is cited across multiple types of publications, from your large publications like Thorps, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Washington Post, to think tanks who use it, or organizations like Achieving the Dream or Jobs for the Future who are helping individual learners make their pathways through life. We see our research very critical because it also helps from a policy perspective. We often see it quoted when they’re looking to figure out where we need to find those students or what is shifting in higher ed.
Drumm McNaughton: So you’ve been there at The Clearinghouse for three years. You come in with a fresh perspective. What’s your impression of higher ed?
Melba Amissi: Interesting question. Being there almost three years, higher education is experiencing significant transformation. It’s influenced by recently varied non-linear student pathways, the emergence of older and career oriented learners, in this heightened expectation for demonstrable return on investment. College presidents and provost must manage these shifts. They’re addressing complex challenges to maintain effective communication with stakeholders. The National Student Clearinghouse plays an essential role in this environment because we’re offering that data and the analytical tools, strategic guidance to inform institutional decisions, promote student achievement and sustain institutional value.
When I came to the National Student Clearinghouse in May of 2023, I swiftly recognized the sectors complexity and fragmentation. The political factors significantly influencing policy and practice. And they have this ongoing pressure to adopt a business oriented perspective, often to show tangible outcomes, but nevertheless, I still see higher education continuing to serve a vital role for individual development, professional progress, societal advancement, and providing opportunities for individuals to shape their futures and contribute constructively to their communities.
Drumm McNaughton: And those are such critical points. It reminds me of the University of California system, when it was first established by Clark Kerr. There was the role of the public good, how we develop good citizens. It wasn’t as focused on workforce outcomes. Although AAC&U just recently issued their new employer survey that said, I want to say it was like 70% of all employers felt like higher ed was worth it, that it’s doing a good job.
[00:08:53] Challenges in Higher Education
Drumm McNaughton: But I also look at it from the political perspective, there’s a pendulum swing that goes back and forth and every time we get a Democrat in, it’s far more regulatory. You get a Republican in, the pendulum slams against the other side. We’re going to do away with the education department. And here in the current administration we’re seeing that lack of regulatory coming to the forefront.
What is the purpose of higher ed? Is it all of these things? Is it none of them?
Melba Amissi: Thinking back to your comments about the shifts, I completely agree with you. I think where they connect would, be it the right or the left, is they want higher ed to be accountable. They want to show that when we’re making these investments as parents, as individuals, that when we’re spending that money for this course, what does it ultimately lead to?
And so I think that’s where, together, they meet. But ultimately what I think higher ed is, will look different over time. I think there’s going to be an adjustment period.
[00:09:56] Non-Traditional Student Pathways
Melba Amissi: We’re going to talk about some of that hopefully today, which is where are these students? What do the students look like? What are the non-traditional populations?
Where do we find those who are underserved? And so I think it’s going to be really critical for institutions themselves to begin to realize how they’re going to shift. And they may need to realize they’re going to have to shift at a much faster pace. You know as I sat in the Workforce Pell Negotiated Rulemaking. It’s clear, as you said, the pendulum has now swung to the right and they’re pushing things back to the states and letting the states really guide things.
And in some cases I learned and in some cases, the schools can’t even regulate some of the things on their own. They’re regulated by the states. So there’s all these different paradigms that are happening in higher education and depending on the type of institution, they’re going to be adjusting differently.
And it’s really who do you want to capture? Who do you want to serve and what do you want the outcomes to be for that population that you’re serving? And it’s going to be multiple types of populations coming to those schools if they really want to maintain those types of enrollments.
Drumm McNaughton: I think that’s spot on. Higher ed, in many respects, needs to take a look at itself differently. What is the mission? Is it public good? Yes. Is it research, teaching? Yes. Is it transformation of students, now we’re talking more the traditional students versus the non-trad that are coming back for graduate school or have dropped out and coming back, et cetera.
And workforce development, I don’t think it’s an or I think it’s all the above that’s important.
Melba Amissi: Completely agree.
Drumm McNaughton: And to be able to do that, we need to look at education differently. What are the benefits that are necessary for higher ed to continue to survive? The cost is outrageous, and I think that’s what’s driving a lot of the public angst against higher ed.
Melba Amissi: You’re absolutely right Drumm.
[00:11:48] Flexible Learning and Credit Mobility
Melba Amissi: I think one of the things is embracing those non-linear student pathways. Today’s students pursue a variety of educational journeys, including transferring between institutions, stopping out and reentering, seeking alternative or stackable credentials. To support those diverse pathways, college leaders need to champion flexible pathways.
You need to develop entry and exit points, implement transfer policies, and recreate programs for stop outs. You need to invest in credit mobility. Establish seamless credit transfer and articulation agreements to facilitate credential completion for students who change schools or pursue alternative credentials and ensure pathways are accessible to unrepresented groups through targeted outreach, tailor support services, and financial aid for non-traditional students.
I understand there’s going to be some challenges. They have challenges with tracking complex student journeys rigid policies and managing resource constraints. But if you take NSC data and use it to really look at comprehensive data on student movement and completion, which we do through our student tracker product.
You can enable institutions to identify bottlenecks and design responsive systems, and then they can also use it benchmarking to allow comparison with other peers and national trends, and then they can support strategic planning and innovation within their organizations.
Drumm McNaughton: And you bring up a very interesting point , my last conversation with Courtney Brown, who’s the VP for research there at Lumina Foundation, they said there are 41.9 million students who have stopped out. I would say now it’s probably closer to 43,000 would be my guess. Be that it as it may, these are non-traditional students. They have different needs and you can’t fit that square peg in a round hole. You’ve got to expand the hole. I’m sorry, I’m using a metaphor, which may or may not work, but you’ve gotta expand that hole so the square peg, these non-traditional students fit in and to be able to give them the support they need to be successful.
Melba Amissi: Agreed. And they need to, Drumm, I think adapt to serving older part-time and career driven students. Like you said, Workforce Pell is going to be an And not an Or. So colleges are increasingly looking to serve those adult learners, part-time students, and those seeking career advancement. They need to expand flexible learning, offer online, hybrid, weekend and evening courses to accommodate working adults and caregivers. Recognize prior learning, implement policies toward credit for work experience, military service. What are those industry certifications they can apply that to?
[00:14:44] Employer Partnerships and Workforce Development
Melba Amissi: And then strengthen , you talked about it earlier, strengthen those employer partnerships.
Collaborate with local national employers, align your programs and that’s a lot with workforce power. They’re pushing it back to the states. Align your programs with workforce needs within your state, providing those real world learning experiences. Balancing that with the needs of the traditional and non-traditional students, it is going to be a challenge. Securing faculty buy-in for flexible learning models, challenge and standardizing prior—
Drumm McNaughton: Really, you’re kidding.
Melba Amissi: —standardizing those learning assessments. If you have a student that’s coming from outta state, what does that look like? How does that compare? How do we start creating interoperability so that the way in which we do those comparisons are the same across states and allow that mobility.
Drumm McNaughton: Mhmm.
[00:15:35] Transfer Students and Articulation Agreements
Drumm McNaughton: Well you bring up a very interesting point. Franklin University is one of those institutions who has done an incredible job with respect to transfer students. They have articulation agreements with over 1400 different institutions. They’re degree completion and that’s, really important for them. But when someone applies to Franklin, they can know within five minutes how many of their credits are going to be accepted. They’ve already got this all mapped out in the computer. Instead of having to send a transcript from the student to a faculty member who goes through this. It’s already mapped out. I don’t know of any other institution who’s done it to that degree. To be able to facilitate transfer students.
Melba Amissi: I think we’re seeing it in some states trying to get together from a state perspective. I know Oregon has made great strides, within its system, in trying to allow for that flexibility for students. But you can imagine what it is for a learner, that as you’re about to enroll, you’re making a choice in what school you’re going to go to, to have access to understand how much credit am I going to get for the work that I’ve done in the past. You’re seeing a lot of startups come about in our credit articulation because it was such an arduous task for the registrars. But they realized, like you said, the population of stop outs is so large. Schools now want to go find those students and they want to give them the confidence that the work that you’ve done in a prior educational organization or things you may have done outside of work will help you contribute faster to earning some type of credential.
Drumm McNaughton: So we have these diverse pathways, these nonlinear pathways, that institutions have to be able to take advantage of and provide a landing place for students to come in.
[00:17:37] Preparing Students for the Job Market
Drumm McNaughton: But we also need to prepare students for today’s job market and life. It’s not an either. It’s a both.
Melba Amissi: Absolutely it is a challenge and sitting in the room with many of the negotiators who were representing many constituents from around the countries, from students to four year, to private, to veterans, to taxpayers, they were very invested. And it was clear the department was like Workforce Pell is to have someone graduate and go get a job.
But higher education also wants to say, I, I want to develop programs where it’s an and I can prepare you to get a job and I can provide you with long-term value of a solid education that allows you flexibility in your career. I think it’s very important for data and analytics to show what’s possible, tracking progress, identifying at risk students, and driving continuous improvement. And I think it’s key, what we talked about before, schools really need to make sure they’re aligning themselves with the employers of the future and the needs of what those skills are. What are those high demand roles?
What are those jobs? They’re going to pay a living wage that allows a person to excel in life. And we’re not talking about creating wealth, we’re talking about being able to buy groceries, send your kids to school, buy a home, buy a car, survive in the United States of America, basically.
And I think in order for them to do that, it’s going to be a challenge because we know, Drumm, technology is going at a pace that you can’t keep up with. And the in demand career of today might not be the in demand career of next two years. So constantly assessing your programs and staying abreast of what’s out there from a career path and what’s available is going to be key.
Drumm McNaughton: Spot on.
[00:19:25] Balancing Traditional and Non-Traditional Needs
Drumm McNaughton: The challenge is a lot of these jobs that freshmen, sophomores are in college and, oh, we’re learning about business, or we want to learn about AI or whatever. AI is disrupting things so much, those jobs haven’t even been thought of, let alone be able to train for ’em at this point. That requires faculty to really look at not only what they’re teaching, but how they’re teaching to create that curiosity for learning going forward.
Melba Amissi: I love the how in that sentence. The how they’re teaching. I think the how will go to the type of programs and the practical part of the actual course. Are they gaining the skill? Is there an opportunity to be hands-on in the skill? So it’s around the design for me of that program. Is there the in class part and then on the job piece of it that’s really helping a somebody go straight outta a course into a job.
I think is there an opportunity for more apprenticeships? Is there an opportunity to make sure that while they’re in the class learning, there’s the practical piece of on the job learning? I understand that schools were designed to be around four years. I think it’s going to be very important that they take a hard look around. How do you take a short term skillset, embed it into a program so that I’m not waiting four years to get out on something I trained with as a freshman, and by time I graduate the job no longer exsists because AI, will use that as our example, AI has transformed that fast, that job no longer exists. So I can’t build a program, a four year program around AI.
[00:21:06] Innovative Education Models
Drumm McNaughton: You reminded me of someone that I just spoke with recently from Paul Quinn College. They have got such a unique program. They’re a smaller school. They don’t have the big dollars that many institutions have. But what they’ve done is establish a program to where freshmen and sophomore actually work at the college as employees, and then they’ve got partnership with industry. Southwest Airlines being one of them and no, they’re not getting paid to be mentioned on the podcast. But Southwest and other large corporations give students in their junior and senior years jobs, so they’re actually working in industry. It’s a very different model, and from a financial perspective, it works well for the college and it works well for the students because this money that they’re earning goes to pay for their tuition, books, all the rest of the fees that are there.
I’ve not heard of anything like this before. Have you?
Melba Amissi: I have not. And I think that’s a great model for schools to adopt, especially when they’re trying to look for those underserved populations who are trying to find a pathway into higher ed. It’s very interesting, like you said, that they’ve found a key employer who’s not just a state employer, it’s a national employer, and they’ve found the ability to partner with them.
I think that’s outstanding. The closest thing I would’ve heard to is in the state of Tennessee. They are working from a state perspective where they’re actually creating a talent pool based on a group of people within Tennessee that are in a system. And as those students graduate, they’re already articulating the skills, what that student has, and they’re working with state agencies as well as some local organizations to use that as a talent pool, because those skills are articulated and they’re able to, they’re validating saying, Hey, when you hire this person, they’re going to be able to immediately come on board and apply that skill to that job.
Drumm McNaughton: Which the crux of the matter is, you’re providing the students, and for some listeners, they may think, oh, Drumm’s gone way off topic again, but I’m going to bring it back right now, is there’s multiple perspectives of what higher ed is supposed to be doing. Civic education, transformation, public good, job skills, something like what Paul Quinn College is doing is providing those skills to the students. They’re giving them the opportunity to gain those skills. They’re giving them the connections out in industry that potentially they can use to get a job going forward. And they’re finding out what the real world is not only from an academic perspective, but from a professional perspective.
That to me is a multi-mission vision for how a college or how education for students should be.
Melba Amissi: I agree with you, and I go back to saying, I think what you said at the top of hour is the real issue.
[00:24:17] Cost and Value of Higher Education
Melba Amissi: It’s the cost.
It’s the cost. Institutions are facing growing pressure to demonstrate the value of a college education. And while all those things you said are true, I don’t think that’s going to go away.
I don’t know if it can be done for less. But I think an institution always has to start marketing themselves. They have to increase transparency, publicly share data on their graduation rates, employment outcomes, the student debt, to build trust with students and stakeholders. And some of that is going to come from the government when they start talking about what does accountability look like, what are those measurements that they’re going to put in place to address that?
I think showing how they’re aligning their programs with workforce needs, regularly updating their curriculum, showing employer feedback, labor market data, also supporting affordability. They can implement initiatives to reduce costs such as scholarships, tuition freezes, and then accelerated degree pathways I think will help also.
Drumm McNaughton: Yes. And it does, you’re absolutely right, it does come back to cost. And all those things are things that institutions can do. But when a student goes and sees, the tuition at X, Y, Z, university, all the fees, everything else comes to $95,000 a year, they may not even have a 10th of that in their bank account. And how can they in any good conscience say, I’m going to obligate myself for this kind of debt on the bet that I’m going to be able to make this back and pay back my loans. The data says, yes, you’ll earn three times more in your lifetime than you will, if you don’t go to college. But for someone who is 17, 18 years old or their parents even looking at that kind of debt is, that’s overwhelming.
[00:26:18] Accountability and Transparency
Melba Amissi: It is, it’s one of the key challenges meeting those accountability standards and demands. It’s not only coming from learners and parents, it’s coming from the department, it’s coming from the administration. They are going to be asking for data that shows when you graduated from certain type of programs, what was the outcome?
We’re seeing it in different types of our funders. We’re seeing it particularly for post-secondary economic outcomes, which is PSEO. They’re showing when people graduate with different type of degrees, what their incomes are. And we’re constantly being asked at The Clearinghouse, will you be able at some point to bring in that wage data so we can actually start looking not just from a state perspective, but looking across multiple types of states to see what those outcomes are.
I don’t have a very direct answer for schools other than what I probably have said before. There is going to be a necessary adjustment within higher education to reshift the way it’s taught. To reshift, maybe, the way we structure the programs. Are their short term programs that allow the outcomes to be measured much faster.
Having people have choices, embedding its skills within those programs so that people are employable much faster. It’s to actually the benefit of the college as much as the learner in doing so, because by showing not only to the learner, to the parents, to those investing in that education, even yourself, to investing in your own education, your employer, investing in your education, it’s going to show that this was worth it. And I think that shift over time will have to happen. It’s not going to go away. It’s only going to get louder in the noise. Someone quoted a stat for me that long ago about how much tuition has grown, like 75% over like the last 20 years. That’s incredible.
Drumm McNaughton: A lot. Yep. And the cost of, the higher education price index went up 3.4% in 2004, which is higher than, frankly, than Inflation.
Melba Amissi: So interesting that you said that because think about it, you are asking the higher institution to bring down the cost of operating institution. Meanwhile, you think about the SIS systems, they have to support, just the administration piece, the salaries they have to pay. A lot of people use that higher education index, their vendors, to price their services, increase the cost.
Drumm McNaughton: And I misspoke. It went up 3.6% in 2025, so it actually increased from 3.4 in 2024. Now there is an interesting thing, we’re getting back to the accountability, is the Free Application for Federal Student Aid, FAFSA, is now going to be warning students when they show an interest in a university that “hey, your earnings may not be as high as the amount that you’re paying.”
It’s a 23% of institutions are going to fall into this category. They enroll, fewer than 3% of the total undergraduates and account for 2% of the FAFSA funds. But having that warning out there is going to scare a lot of people from going out and getting a degree from these institutions.
Melba Amissi: I was reading that article, Drumm, as well. I thought to myself, this is great. And they talked about this last week as well. This morning was going to be on top of the application this year. And you used the word scare. What I’m hoping happens, and I feel awful for the colleges that will be impacted, the set of institutions that will be on the list, who today based on current outcomes, their tuition far exceeds what anybody who’s for the most amount have graduated make.
But I think it’s going to be the first time that I feel like choice comes into play. There may be institutions where this is the only opportunity, like it’s this a local institution for a student. This is the closest they can get to. They don’t have the ability to travel to another school. But I feel like giving somebody the choice upfront and the knowledge to make that decision is critical and it’s knowledge they didn’t have before.
[00:30:23] Return on Investment in Education
Drumm McNaughton: We’re coming close to the end of our time, but there was one point that I really wanted to explore with you, and that is the term ROI, Return on Investment. We are touching on that, but we’re hearing more and more from the general public, especially from the right side, but also should be from the left side of the aisle as well.
There needs to be a better ROI for education. Frankly, I think there is a good ROI. I don’t think schools are publicizing it well enough. What are your thoughts?
Melba Amissi: I agree. As I said earlier, I’ll go back to my points, publicly share your data on graduation rates. Those students, show the employment outcomes of your students publicly. Show student debt to build trust with student and stakeholders. Show when people are graduating, how much they owe after they graduate.
Yes. I’m not saying on the individual level. Of course, we have privacy as we need respect. Really focus on aligning your programs for the needs of what the job market is out there today. It is going to be so critical. If you don’t have someone internally in your organization that has that skillset, it’s right now is the time to go and find them.
Find out how you get those partnerships in place. Find out how you start making inroads into major employers. Like the example you showed with the schools working with Southwest. Yes. It takes work in the long run. You’ll find like Microsoft did when they went to Miami, we know that cybersecurity was an in-demand career and Microsoft partnered with the community colleges in Miami and they built programs and sponsored those programs just so they could start filling that employer pipeline.
That’s what you want to see happening.
Drumm McNaughton: Yes, I had, gosh, I don’t remember her name, the President of Miami-Dade College talk about that very thing. Yes.
Incredible conversation today. This has just been so fun for me. Thank you. Thank you.
Melba Amissi: This has been great for me.
[00:32:22]
Melba Amissi: I hope that college presidents and provosts are uniquely positioned to lead transformative change, and they can leverage NSC’s robust data and reporting tools to do so and address key challenges about building flexible pathways, equitable pathways, adapting to the needs of non-traditional learners, fostering a culture of analytics and really demonstrating measurable ROI. They can really, and try improve student outcomes and sustain value of higher education and rapidly evolving landscape.
Drumm McNaughton: And rapidly evolving is an understatement.
Melba Amissi: Wow.
[00:32:59] Three Takeaways for University Presidents and Boards
Drumm McNaughton: So Melba, thank you as we always do, our final two questions. Three takeaways for university presidents and boards.
Melba Amissi: Three takeaways, transparency, very key, alignment, find those key partnerships from a workforce perspective, whether it be within your state or national employers. Overcoming those headwinds that are coming your way around, that accountability and transparency. And then really demonstrate the real impact that your strategies have on student, faculty and stakeholders.
Be very transparent about it and share it.
[00:33:37] Bonus Takeaway from Dr. McNaughton
Drumm McNaughton: I’m going to add one more, moderators prerogative. Be sure that you’re looking at the various pathways because it’s not a traditional linear pathway. You’re going to be bringing in students from all different walks of life. You’ve got to take care of all of those students and keep that focus on the student.
We all love, faculty governance, et cetera, et cetera. You’re in business, your mission is all about educating the students.
Melba Amissi: Embrace those diverse and non-linear students and the pathways they’re going to go through. Very key.
Drumm McNaughton: Exactly. Thank you.
[00:34:17] Closing Remarks
Drumm McNaughton: What’s next for you?
Melba Amissi: What’s next for me? I am going to wrap this year up by making sure that I set my team up for success in 2026. We have a lot of work to do with schools. We’re going to be focusing on Workforce Pell and how to help schools prepare for that. And we are looking forward to talking to many states and trying to figure out what those state strategies look like.
Drumm McNaughton: Melba, this has been a fascinating conversation for me. Thank you for taking time with me today. It’s been a lot of fun.
Melba Amissi: It’s been a lot of fun for me too, and I really appreciate you having me. I was very honored to be here today.
Drumm McNaughton: It’s my honor to have you here. Good luck in 2026. We’re all going to, no, I shouldn’t say we’re all going to need it, but… you know. Gordon Gee, I think, said it best when I had him on the program back at the beginning of COVID. He says, COVID is accelerating needed changes in higher ed by a decade or more.
We’re still seeing that transformation. AI is speeding it up and the public opinions are making sure that it sticks. We have to listen.
Melba Amissi: Yes. Completely agree with you.
Drumm McNaughton: Thank you, my friend. Enjoyed the conversation very much.
Melba Amissi: Me as well. Thank you, Drumm.
Drumm McNaughton: Thanks for listening today and a special thank you to my guest, Melba Amissi.
Melba, thanks for being on the show. I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation and I look forward to the next time our paths cross on the podcast or wherever. To my listeners, thanks again for joining me. I’ll see you next week.
