International Student Recruiting in Higher Education—23 Touchpoints, Visa Barriers, and Retention Risks for Boards:

Changing Higher Ed podcast 275 with host Dr. Drumm McNaughton and guest Dr. Roger Douglas

Transcript: Changing Higher Ed podcast 275 – with host Dr. Drumm McNaughton and guest Dr. Roger Douglas

Introduction to Changing Higher Ed^®

Welcome to Changing Higher Ed^®, a podcast dedicated to helping higher education leaders improve their institutions. With your host, Dr. Drumm McNaughton, CEO of The Change Leader, a consultancy that helps higher ed leaders holistically transform their institutions. Learn more at changinghighered.com. And now, here’s your host, Drumm McNaughton.

[00:00:20] Guest Introduction and Background

Drumm McNaughton: Thank you, David.

My guest today is Dr. Roger Douglas, Dean for International Programs and Development at St. Martin’s University. Roger has had a long and storied career in international education, including having served as the Director of International Admissions and Services for Kutztown University, Director of Graduate Programs Advisor at Faculty of Education, University of British Columbia, and in 2024, he was a recipient of the Fulbright International Administrators Award. Obviously, today’s subject and the conversation’s going to be about international student recruiting, and I’d like to welcome Roger to the program.

Roger Douglas: Thanks. Glad to be here.

Drumm McNaughton: I’m glad to have you here as well. You have an incredible background with international students, which is a topic of our podcast today.

[00:01:11] Roger’s Journey into International Education

Drumm McNaughton: Tell our listeners a little bit about you and how you got to be an expert in this particular area.

Roger Douglas: Well, I’ll try to keep it to a rather short story, although I could go on and on. So, really what launched me into, at least being interested in international is that way back when I was teaching in an elementary school in Overland Park, Kansas, I had the opportunity to work summer camps. And a summer camp, back in New Hampshire, brought in these kids from all over the world, ages ranging anywhere from eight up to about 15 years of age. I worked at camp for three, almost four years, I guess it is four summers and there was a group of kids from Kuwait and long story short, I went and resigned from my position in Overland Park, Kansas as an elementary teacher, and went and worked in an international school, K-12, for about eight years.

That prompted me to do a lot of things. I finished my master’s while I was there from the College of New Jersey. Started on my doctorate from Lehigh University, and when I was ready to leave there, I came back and actually started working at Lehigh University, and that’s kept me in higher ed ever since. And got me in the taste of, not only living internationally, but working with international students. Albeit that I’m working with a different age range now than I initially started with, but Yes, it’s been a great learning experience.

[00:02:39] Living and Working Abroad

Roger Douglas: I really encourage anybody ever has an opportunity to go and live outside of the United States it really opens up your eyes to many different things, to stand on the outside and look in to see what perspective they view the U.S. And of course you learn about different cultures, which has helped me throughout my career and working with students coming from all over the world and, learning about their culture but also, acclimating and getting them assimilated into the U.S. culture.

Drumm McNaughton: That’s so critical and you bring up excellent points, especially living overseas. I personally, I’ve lived overseas 19 years of my life, Europe, central America, and Asia, and I jokingly tell people, I look American, but I’m not. When you’ve lived overseas, you’ve visited so many countries, like you have, like I have, you start to see things from a different perspective, don’t you?

Roger Douglas: You do. You very much do, and you learn to really appreciate the small things, the things that you often might take for granted on a daily basis, having lived here in the U.S., the services and the things that we have, basically at our reach, whereas that’s not the case when you live in another country. You have to learn how the processes and things work within that environment that you’re living in. And that’s a great learning experience for any individual.

Drumm McNaughton: And conversely, when students come here, they have to learn our systems, which, that’s one of the things that, how students differ. When we’ve got the traditional age students from the U.S., They’re at least, close, they understand the culture here, but when you bring someone in from the Far East or the Middle East, or even Europe, it’s totally different.

Roger Douglas: Yes, and it really allows me to have great empathy because I’ve walked in their shoes, obviously in a different type of environment. So, I can sometimes, not always, but sometimes I can foresee what they might be thinking in a situation that they’re in because I’ve been in that situation, and so it allows me to work with him on a different level, I guess you would say.

Drumm McNaughton: Yes, and I had a guest recently, Semester at Sea, who was the same type of thing taking U.S. students over to multiple different ports. So they were getting that same experience in reverse.

Roger Douglas: Yes. Yes. And actually, that’s part of my portfolio that I see over presently, study abroad is one aspect of it in addition to the international admissions. But, I always tell students, I said, “you’re going to have this experience of going and studying abroad”. And I said, “you know, it sounds kind of corny right now, but it’s going to change your life”. And they don’t really believe it until they’ve come back and they said, “Hey, you were right”. It plants the seed for an individual to say, “Hey, I can do that”, or opens up a whole box of exploration. It’s like, okay, maybe I went with a group this time, but now I’m going to go out by myself because I know I can do it myself. It builds that confidence within themselves.

Drumm McNaughton: We saw that with, we call him number one son, the oldest, he went over for two years to the Peace Corps in Kazakhstan, in a very remote village. And whereas before, he was always a great guy. But , before going over, he wasn’t as resilient or as self-dependent as he could have been.

When he came back, completely changed, it’s like, wow, this was an incredible experience for him.

Roger Douglas: Yes, I’ve certainly had those conversations with parents when their son or daughters come back and they said, “Wow. It’s like a whole different person has entered into our house”. There, is that confidence level within themselves and then, like I said, it plants a seed, then they’re soon looking at what’s the next opportunity for me to go and explore and what, what’s that going to look like?

Drumm McNaughton: Exactly.

[00:06:36] Differences Between International and U.S. Students

Drumm McNaughton: So let’s chat a little bit about the international students. How do international students differ from U.S. students.

Roger Douglas: In many ways they do not. This is reaching back to when I was teaching elementary, when I taught these kids in Kuwait, I said, I see sometimes the same behaviors that I see in this classroom that I saw in the U.S. classroom, but being, at a university level, for a student to come and study in the United States, it truly is a family decision. You really need to build the trust with that family. You need to build the trust with that student because they’re uprooting themselves in many ways and putting themselves in a new educational system that they’re not familiar with. But in addition to that, they’re putting themselves, like we were talking about, in a new culture.

And so there’s these two big things that they’re going to have to be dealing with while still trying to make progress in whatever degree program they’ve come here to study. And so, I guess you would look at it, there’s three things. Make progress in your degree program. Learn to assimilate or at least somewhat understand the culture now that you’re living in as a student. And then learning a whole new educational system because students learn a different way in different countries, and when they come to the United States, sometimes that’s a great big learning curve.

Drumm McNaughton: Oh, it can be huge. You stop and think about in, even in the UK, which is as close to our system as any, they use the tutorial model, which is usually a small group of folks getting together, discuss, et cetera. Whereas, very typical for the general ed. courses and other courses at the U.S. institutions, you’re in a lecture hall with 350 other students. And there’s a TA there to answer your questions versus a professor. Very different.

Roger Douglas: Yes, one of the first things I always tell students when they come in during our orientation time is that I said, “it’s okay to ask questions. It’s okay to ask questions of your professor while they’re lecturing”. And they’re really taken back by that because in many cultures, whatever the professor is saying , that’s what the law is, that’s what the way of thinking is, and so there’s not a lot of challenging. And so I always tell them, “if you disagree, challenge them on that topic or that point of view. Do it respectfully, obviously. But they welcome that dialogue that makes the classroom even richer”.

And, and I said that, “the faculty here will come to know you and they’ll value what insight you might be bring to the classroom”.

Drumm McNaughton: And for many international students, that’s very difficult because they’re not raised in the same way. Our kids, that old saying, kids are meant to be seen and not heard actually is more pervasive overseas than it is here.

Roger Douglas: Yes, Yes, for sure. And , there is a lot of trepidation by the students in perhaps approaching that. But I often tell them, the other thing too is “if you’re not understanding what’s happening in the classroom, faculty have office hours, they have a chance that you can sit down with them outside of the classroom and say, Hey, I don’t understand what you were saying about this particular, mathematical problem, whatever the case might be”.

And I said, “they are there to help you. And there’s other support services as well”. And that might not always be the case wherever they’ve come from.

Drumm McNaughton: Yes, and I used office hours quite a bit, when it came to physics and math and things along those lines. Absolutely.

Roger Douglas: Right.

Drumm McNaughton: So we’ve talked a little bit about the differences between U.S. and international students.

[00:10:15] Recruiting International Students

Drumm McNaughton: I would be willing to bet the recruiting process is very different as well, or it certainly can be.

Roger Douglas: Right. Right, and I think it, it comes back to, to a sense of trust, that you’re not going to necessarily go out and see a student and talk with them only one time and convince them to come to your university. It’s going to take several touch points and one of the things that I am quite proud of where I’m presently working is that we, from a point of inquiry into the point of enrollment, we have about 23 touch points that we, hit with students.

Those range anywhere from an email to a text, to a phone call, webinars, whatever it might be because we want them to remain engaged. We want them to continue to learn about the university and also share that information with their family. As I relayed before is that it is a family decision. So if the family’s comfortable and knowing where their center daughter is going to be it helps through those many touchpoints along the way.

Drumm McNaughton: And I’m curious, does it matter? Is it important how old that student is for the recruiting process?

Roger Douglas: Not really. I’ve certainly worked with students that are what you would consider outside of the traditional age for a bachelor’s degree. Or even at a graduate level, someone that perhaps has had a professional career but now is wanting to come back and earn a degree from the U.S. So, regardless of what their age is we want to remain in constant communication.

That being said, obviously the younger they are, the more maybe apprehensive they might be, or not sure what they want to study or where they want to end up, those kinds of things. Graduate students, they have a better concept or idea of what they’re wanting to do. So as I’m working and recruiting graduate students, most likely they have narrowed down their choices to maybe two or three schools.

And so you’re competing against these other schools and the services and the programs that they offer. And so it is really important to be highly responsive, quick turnaround time with those graduate students because in their mind they’re wanting to make a decision and they’re wanting to make that decision relatively quickly. And so if you are responsive, if you’re able to give them the information that they’re seeking, there’s a higher probability that they’re going to come to you.

Drumm McNaughton: And that’s not unlike U.S. graduate students as well, they’ll apply to two, maybe three. And the research says that the first institution to respond back to them with acceptance plus potential financial aid is the one where they generally go to.

Roger Douglas: Right, right. And you are working with international students, and I would say tendency more grad students too, is that it’s important about name recognition. They’re seeing these schools with well-known branding, that are in the news, maybe Ivy League schools. And, as you and I, well know, not everyone’s going to get into that Ivy League school or that top level school.

And so it is also a little bit about educating them, counseling them. What’s going to be the best fit for you? Just because maybe mom and dad see that this is a high-ranking university and they have all of this, well, that’s great and they’ve earned that, but that may not be the best fit for you. You need to find a place that is going to serve your needs and going to end up having you reach your educational goals.

Drumm McNaughton: And I think that is so critical, being able to reach out quickly, speaking with the parents, being responsive to them, but also the name recognition, like you just said. Most institutions don’t advertise overseas, I mean, how many billboards do you have, TV ads? So do you have enrollment staff over, in particular, target countries that you like to, how does that work?

Roger Douglas: Yes. Yes. And I’ve certainly worked at institutions that have carried that name recognition and yes, I’ll admit it makes it a little bit easier, versus where I am now, where we don’t carry that large branding. And so it is important to always remain out in front and that can work in various ways. I certainly, I do work with agents, and I know sometimes there’s a little bit of hesitancy, but we vet our agents, our recruiting agents. We don’t have anybody necessarily as an agent on the ground representing my university. But there are universities that do that. They have a representative that is on the ground and that’s only who they are recruiting for.

But we also attend international recruitment fairs, myself often is the person that’s going. so there’s a chance face-to-face. We do a few virtual fairs, which, that has a tendency sometimes to draw more attention to the more name recognition school. So you really have to have a lot of important information uploaded that is pertinent to what you think those students are really looking for. I really think that’s important.

We also use vendors, vendors as far as helping us with our marketing. Right now, this day and age, digital marketing is really important. Hitting out on the social media, that’s key. Depending on what your demographics, what you’re looking for, you have to target certain things that you think, “okay, that age range is going to go for Instagram or that age range is going to go for a TikTok video”. So you really have to craft your marketing to fit who you’re going after.

Drumm McNaughton: Oh my gosh. Higher ed doing marketing, targeted marketing. What a concept.

Roger Douglas: Who woulda’ thought?

Drumm McNaughton: Who to thunk? Yes. And that’s interesting because I know one institution that I’ve worked with as a client who actually had, they recruit people from overseas and the U.S. as well, but they actually had people, enrollment counselors, in particular target countries. They lived there and so they made the connections to the businesses, they made the connections to the schools, the various channels that you engage and funnels that you enroll through. S,o I think that’s a really good model. Agents, you’re doing the same thing using agents.

Roger Douglas: Right, and all of that being said, the best recruiter is a student from that country that is presently with your university. Because I can talk until the day is long about how great our university is and what programs we offer. But when they hear it from a peer and especially a peer from their country or maybe even from their hometown, that carries so much weight and credibility, that’s the selling piece basically. So, I really try to use students that we currently have. I’ve certainly used them in webinars with students, and I tell them, I said, “share the good and the bad”. I said, “because every day is not going to be rosy and great, and you’re going to wake up and everything’s going to go your way”.

I said, “share those days because they will experience them, but also, share your experiences and the growth that you’ve made while you’ve been here”.

Drumm McNaughton: And of course we all know the benefits of having international students, especially to the bottom line for the institution. But what many folks, and this was a point that you brought up when we spoke last week, what many folks don’t stop and think about is the cultural richness, the conversations, the discussions that you can have in class, bringing in those outside opinions that may be 180 degrees out from yours.

Roger Douglas: Right, right. Exactly. We were just talking earlier about the study abroad or those U.S. students that are wanting. So there are students that, they’ll never have the ability to go study abroad, but they have the ability or capability of sitting next to a student from Iran or from Spain or whatever, and that is how they learn about the different cultures.

They may not have to travel there, but, they end up becoming friends and they end up understanding where that person, how they grew up, what their cultural beliefs are, what their morals are, and so that, like you said, it adds such richness to the experience of everyone in the classroom.

Drumm McNaughton: I almost hesitate to ask this one, but I’m going to.

[00:18:56] Challenges and Strategies in International Education

Drumm McNaughton: Our current international situation with, well, tariffs and all that other stuff, but the challenges that many international students are having with visas, et cetera, how is that affecting students?

Roger Douglas: Big time.

Drumm McNaughton: I figured

Roger Douglas: I will say that I have had conversations with students that are currently with us that I never thought in a million years that I would have with them residing in the United States. But it’s reassuring them that we’re here for them, that we’re here to support them, that we will, protect them as much to our ability. But it’s also reassuring those students that are thinking about coming into the U.S. I’ll be completely transparent, I’ve had conversations with students that said, “I’m not coming. It’s not safe”.

Or, maybe it’s a university, they’re transferring in from a university outside the United States, and the university said, “You know what? We’re not going to send a student to the U.S. right now. It’s just not, we’re not comfortable in doing so”.

So you’re going to run into those, but I always try to reassure the students, I just got an email here this week, very well-written email just asking, “can you assure me that I’m going to be okay”? And I always tell them, “I can’t to a hundred percent, but I can tell you all the steps that we are making to make sure that you are having an easy transition into the U.S.

There are some things that are out of control, but working in international education, you have to be an advocate, so writing our Congress people, writing the representatives that represent us and the professional organizations and just continue to put pressure on the decision makers to show what the importance is of having international students. It’s not only great for the economy, obviously, 40 plus billion dollars into the U.S. economy, but like we were talking, it’s bringing in and having people understand people that are different than themselves.

Drumm McNaughton: Oh, that’s scary. That’s really

Roger Douglas: Yes. Some people not willing to be open with that, but I think the more that they say, “oh, you know what, that person, they seem similar to what I am like, and I grew up in, I grew up in Kansas and this person from Nepal, we’ve had a few similar experiences, and family’s important, family’s important here, so maybe there are some similarities that they can see with one another.

Drumm McNaughton: That’s important because there are many U.S. institutions establishing branch campuses overseas. Back, 10, 15 years ago it was a rage. I’ve got a colleague who’s over at New York University in Abu Dhabi.

Roger Douglas: Yes.

Drumm McNaughton: New York University is one of the big ones that’s gone over in multiple places, but even smaller places that one client that I talked to you about before, who has a recruiting in different countries, they’re an online institution, but if you’re over there working with them, you get to know the students.

Roger Douglas: Right. Most definitely. It’s interesting because as institutions have gone and set up these satellite campuses and continue, maybe at a slower pace, but they continue to do so, they’re often coming up against now local universities that students are deciding based on the climate that’s here in the U.S. and the cost, obviously, they’re deciding to reside back home, or maybe choose other places.

Going back to recruiting, that makes it a little even tougher, if they’re deciding to reside in a more regional area that they’re from or maybe even a home institution. So that competition of the U.S. campuses going over, they’re getting a little bit more competitive.

Drumm McNaughton: And from a graduate school and graduate student perspective, the research funding cuts that are out there, that’s really hurting a lot of international recruiting. We have a lot of international students who come over just to do research.

Roger Douglas: Sure. You’re exactly right. The cutting of the research funding is certainly detrimental. It also is hurting our U.S. graduate students. They’re now seeking opportunities outside of the U.S. to pursue their graduate degrees. So Yes, it’s hitting everyone for sure.

[00:23:19] Future of International Programs

Drumm McNaughton: So what do U.S. higher ed institutions need to do in the current situation?

Roger Douglas: Well first of all, they need to stand strong. Don’t back down. Hold your ground. As you’ve seen, some universities have decided to hold their ground and usually the U.S. administration has backed off a little bit. The other thing that is really important is be an advocate, be an advocate for international, be an advocate for higher education.

More specific is that for international students and, well, all students in general, is that you have to be creative, you have to be nimble in what you’re offering, the programs that you offer perhaps, more and more so is that students, and particularly graduate students, they’re not necessarily looking for a brick and mortar school anymore to attend. They’re looking for something that fits into their professional career life, that while they’re working, they can also go to school. So are there opportunities for hybrid programs or all online courses that really fit to the person that is a working individual that still wants to pursue their graduate degree.

Those are all really important aspects. And we were talking about the research funding being cut. Look for other ways that you can generate funding. Whether that’s through private donations, the more that you tell about what’s happening at your institution, more people will say, “Hey, you know what, I think I want to make a contribution to that university. And here I want to give it to those people that are going to study biology”. Whatever the subject area might be, those are ways that you can continue to have some of that funding that might be used for research for students. But it also helps in branding, it also helps in recruitment, it’s just a whole encompassing approach.

Drumm McNaughton: And thank you for that segue. because the next thing I was going to ask is how does your marketing have to change?

Roger Douglas: Your marketing has to change, well, we were talking about digital marketing. Really the way of, the hard copy, this is what my program’s about, that’s really gone away. It’s scan the QR code, learn about our program, learn about how this student here is presently in our program and what successes they’ve had, and this is where they’re going after they’ve graduated, they’ve landed a job, so they can see that connection between earning a degree, getting a job.

Or in a bachelor’s case, earn the degree and this is where I’m going now to graduate school or whatever the case pathway might be. Those are really important because international students, that’s one of the questions they usually ask is say, alright, ” what’s this going to get me? When I earn my degree, what our job opportunities might there be”?

So, if you can say, “Hey, our students are now, depending on whatever area they’re focused in, they’re off to a medical school or they have landed a job at Google or name recognition type, larger corporations”. If they can see that pathway and they can even hear the testimonials, again, that is just another feather in your cap when you’re going out recruiting.

Drumm McNaughton: And you know the other thing too, I think, which is different from what it used to be, and especially with international students, is you have to start marketing your programs as well as your institution. What is the niche that you’re in and how does that relate to internationals? Frankly, it’s how does it relate to any student, especially for the internationals.

Roger Douglas: Because students are coming to earn a degree they have a desire, this is what they want to be. So, they are focused in, and they should be focused in, on the programs that they offer. Just because a university is large, has, these multiple programs, but is there a program that is for you that you’re wanting to, reach your goal. So talking about those programs, how they’re laid out, how long’s it going to take you to earn that degree, what is it like, are there in internships embedded in these programs that give you some real-life experience in your area that you seek to have a degree in?

Those are all important aspects, and those things are what you want to highlight in your programs. Yes, we are a part of this big university, but there’s some really strong programs here and these are some of the aspects of those programs that you want to share, and you want to market out to students.

Drumm McNaughton: And the constant communications in the funnel, as we mentioned earlier, is really, really important, especially for international students.

Roger Douglas: Yes, most definitely. There shouldn’t be any more than. To be honest, like two weeks that go by that if they haven’t heard from you. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be, it can be something as simple as a video. We’ve sent out videos that the day in the life of a student, of an international student, and it basically shows the person from the time that they get up until the time they go to bed and they’re stopping by the coffee shop on campus. They’re going to the bookstore, maybe picking up a t-shirt or picking up a textbook and they’re off to their first class or they’re in a study group or in they’re in the library. So they can see what it is really like as a college student at an American university. Those are the things that keep students engaged as they’re thinking about making a decision.

Drumm McNaughton: And making that decision is just one piece of it. It’s also once they get here, retaining them, and that’s where many institutions fall down. They’re real great on enrollment, but the retention, the persistence, all of those things. International students have different needs, don’t they?

Roger Douglas: Right, right. And I currently sit on a retention committee for the university, and we always talk about if we can increase our retention, then we don’t necessarily have to spend so much time recruiting all these new students coming in because we will not have lost the students that started with us.

And so, making sure that even once they are here, that you’re touching base with those students and really this applies to U.S. students or international students, but constantly keeping them engaged, checking in with them, “Hey, how’s everything going? Is there anything that’s troubling you? Is there something that you’ve been looking for that you can’t find in the university that we can put you in contact with? “

Those are all important aspects. for our international office here, I think it’s just as important to have outside of classroom experiences as there are things that are happening in the classroom. So, we have student activities that we take them on, on a day trip, or we connect them up with a host family, so if there’s a long holiday, these international students get to experience a little bit of Americano with an American family so they can see, what do they do on a holiday weekend. And so just allows them to learn more, like we said about that culture, and makes them feel a little bit more “home away from home”, which is all really important to retaining those students in the long run.

Drumm McNaughton: And from a bottom-line perspective, we are all one world. Multiple flavors, one world, let’s share our experiences and learn from other folks.

Roger Douglas: Yes, I say, ” a student is a student is a student” kind of thing, no matter really where they’ve come from. Like you said, they bring different things to us and share, as well as us sharing with them and that’s what makes the world go round, I guess.

[00:31:17] Three Takeaways for Higher Education Presidents and Boards:  what do they need to be aware of when it comes to recruiting and retaining international students?

Drumm McNaughton: Absolutely. Roger, this has been a fascinating conversation. Thank you so much for being on the show. As we always do, our two takeaway questions. First one, three takeaways for higher ed presidents and boards, what do they need to be aware of when it comes to recruiting and retaining international students?

Roger Douglas: Well, I would say, in general, you don’t have to have all the answers. You can be humble. You can say, “Hey, I don’t know, but I’ll find out the answer for that”. I think that applies to anything for all presidents. But I think it’s really important to, if you have international students on your campus and you are a university or college president, learn about these students, become engaged with them. Something as simple as sitting down to lunch with them or grabbing a coffee with a group of students. They get to learn about you and maybe the bigger things that are happening in the university. You can educate these students, but maybe you’re going to learn about the perspectives that they bring of something is special that could really add value to your university and make your university a success.

Drumm McNaughton: Well great. Thank you. What’s next for you?

Roger Douglas: Oh, what’s next for me? Well, you know what’s interesting in working in international is that right now I’m the Dean for International Programs and Development here at St. Martin’s University. There’s not a lot of deans of international across the United States. It’s just the structure, infrastructure within universities. And there’s even fewer, provost, vice provosts, they are usually at really larger research one institutions. So, I’m aiming to make a career move, something to advance my career. And I will say this, I have worked at multiple universities, whether they be big or small, private or public, so I know the day-to-day operations that it takes to run, whether it’s a small institution or a big research one institution. And so as research one institutions go out and recruit for vice provosts or deans for international, don’t think that individual has to come from a research one over to a research one. There’s many things that any smaller university individual can bring to a research one that they never thought about doing.

Drumm McNaughton: That’s a great perspective. Thank you. Thank you very much. Well, Roger, this is, again, this has been a fun conversation. It’s always neat to speak with somebody who understands the international really well. Like I said earlier, I’ve lived overseas 19 years and it’s kinda like an old home week for me to be able to talk. So efharistó (thank you), as we would say in Greece.

Roger Douglas: Well, it’s been great. International’s enjoyable it changes on a day-to-day basis and they enrich my life and the experiences that they’ve brought to me and I hope that I’ve been able to give something to them during their experience here in the U.S.

Drumm McNaughton: I am sure you have. Roger, thank you again. I look forward to the next time our paths cross.

Roger Douglas: Alright, take care.

Drumm McNaughton: You too.

Thanks for listening and a special thank you to my guest, Dr. Roger Douglas. Roger, thanks for being on the program. Thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. You brought back a lot of memories from me being overseas.

To my listeners, thanks again for tuning in and guess what, we’ve gone over a hundred thousand episodes downloaded, so thank you all for many times you’ve downloaded the program. I’ll see you next week.