Improving the Experience for Community College Transfer Students:

Changing Higher Ed podcast 224 with host Dr. Drumm McNaughton and guest Joshua Bay

Transcript: Changing Higher Ed Podcast 224 with host Dr. Drumm McNaughton and guest Joshua Bay

Introduction and Guest Welcome

Drumm: Thank you, David. Our guest today is Joshua Bay, an education reporter with The 74, a nonprofit news organization covering America’s education system from early childhood through college and career. Joshua’s coverage spans from artificial intelligence in the classroom to Gen Z’s growing apathy toward a college education.

With support from his fellowship at the Poynter Institute, Joshua produced a three-part project taking a closer look into the struggles of earning a bachelor’s degree, particularly among community college transfers. He joins us today to discuss the study and what higher ed institutions need to do to improve the student experience.

Joshua, welcome to the program.

Joshua: Thank you so much for having me, Drumm.

Drumm: My pleasure.

Joshua Bay’s Background and Journalism Journey

Drumm: I am looking forward to our conversation. You just recently wrapped up a three-part project. Looking at the struggles of earning a bachelor’s degree really focused on first-gen students. Before we get into that, I’d like to hear a little more about your background. This is a fascinating topic.

And how did you get into journalism?

As you mentioned, I’m Joshua Bay, an education reporter for The 74. A lot of my coverage spans from youth mental health to artificial intelligence in the classroom, to Gen Z’s declining college interest. Prior to The 74, I was a graduate student at Georgetown University, where I studied educational transformation, focusing on advocacy and policy.

Joshua: I was also an alum of the University of La Verne, where I studied public affairs. So, that’s where my journalism and communications background came from. As you mentioned, in my three-part project that I did for The 74, I’m actually an alum of the Poynter Koch Media and Journalism Fellowship Program.

And it was through that fellowship. With the Pointer Institute and stand together, I was able to produce that project that took a closer look into the struggles college students face to earn a bachelor’s degree

Drumm: You’ve got me curious.

The 74 and Its Mission

Drumm: I’ve never heard a name like The 74; how did the publication get its name?

 I tend to get asked that question a lot. A lot of people are a little bit confused about the name “The 74.” So, when The 74 was first founded, there were about 74 million children in the United States. The 74 is pretty much a nod to those children in the United States.

Drumm: That’s pretty neat. At least it’s not entitled to the 1.7 billion, which has to do with the amount of debt out there right now.

Joshua: We’ll definitely find ourselves changing the name depending on who, which students were referring to, or which children referring to.

Drumm: There we go. Flexibility, they say, is the key to success. So that’s important.  

Joshua: Definitely.

*Challenges in Earning a Bachelor’s Degree

Drumm: The struggles of earning a bachelor’s degree. Why was this topic so important to you?

Joshua: The struggles of earning a bachelor’s degree is something that’s just so prevalent right now, especially when we’re talking about First-generation students, when we’re talking about students of color, low-income students, gaining that economic and social mobility is such an important topic right now, especially within education.

When I had that opportunity through my fellowship with the Pointer Institute and stood together to really take a deeper dive into this topic, I definitely jumped right on it. And it was able to produce that three-part project—the first looking into community college or just undergraduate enrollment.

The second is looking at bachelor’s degree completion rates. Then the third really taking that in-depth look at students who really, represented that there is this really important and integral struggle that’s happening within college students that continues to prevail even up until today.

Drumm: What are some of the things that you found in this study? I’m sure we could talk for two hours on the total, but here is just a summary of what you found.

*Key Findings from the Study

Joshua: For my first article, again, I took a deeper dive into undergraduate enrollment data. It was through that that I found that community colleges led overall growth in the fall of 2023. Still, those enrollment gains were carried by community colleges with a vocational program focus. Also, fewer community college students were transferring to four-year institutions, especially when you’re looking at pre-pandemic numbers.

And then, my second article took a look at bachelor degree completion rates. And it was, through looking at this data, that only about one-third of community college students ended up transferring to a four-year school and less than half of them graduated within six years. So we’re looking at about 16 percent end up getting that bachelor’s degree with even lower completion rates from black students, Latino students, and low-income students.

And then my third article, as mentioned earlier, was really taking an in depth look at the trials and tribulations of three students in particular.

The first one the first student was a community college student who grew up in Mexico.

The second student was an older student who managed to transfer to a four-year school.

The third student ended up leaving his college program to start his own business.

Drumm: That sounds like a very comprehensive project.

Community College Transfers and Their Struggles

Drumm: Let’s focus in a little bit on the second portion of that is those students transferring from community college to a four-year institution. It sounds like they’ve had some challenges, especially with a 16 percent completion rate.

Joshua: There’s definitely a lot of challenges especially, particularly for community college transfers and their success rates at those four-year institutions. There are definitely a bunch of different things that we can go into about why that ends up being the case, but ultimately, one of the things that I have found through my research and chatting with other researchers and advocates is that oftentimes, these university actors, aren’t necessarily well equipped to deal with the many, different needs of these students.

Drumm: Okay, that’s an interesting and a pretty provocative statement, Which I’m fine with. I think you’re right. My sense is probably there isn’t a lot of scaffolding in place to help these transfer students. Is that a fair statement?

Joshua: That’s definitely a fair statement. And I guess to continue the point that I was making earlier, I believe that higher education institutions aren’t particularly listening to their students or attaining or paying attention to the needs that they need to be successful. I think the short answer is no, but the long answer is that it really varies depending on which colleges and college actors we’re referring to.

Drumm: So, it’s an interesting statement that colleges aren’t listening. I would suggest there’s probably that piece that they probably don’t know the right questions to ask, but also, knowing what I know, and you do as well, first-gen students are really hesitant to say what they need, or they don’t know because they’ve never been in that situation.

Joshua: I think everything you just said right now is right on the nose about the experience of first-generation students. And let’s just set the foundation, right? Let’s call a spade about who first-generation college students are as we go into the issues they face in the higher education system. First-generation students are often students of color and they often come from lower-income backgrounds; from this, first-generation students are often the first in their families to navigate college admissions, financial aid and post-secondary coursework. And because of this, as you had just mentioned, you’ll often find them hesitant to say what they need. Or they may not even realize what they need to be a successful student.

Drumm: There’s a few colleges who get it right, but the majority really don’t.

Joshua: Yeah, and to go back to what I was mentioning earlier, it definitely varies depending on which colleges and college actors we’re referring to, you know, from previous articles that I’ve written for The 74 and past research I found that community colleges have historically served a great number of first-generation students and because of that I’ve seen some pretty great strides on their end to ensure that those interested in transferring to a four-year institution and are interested in getting their bachelor’s degree or being guided along the way.

But once those community college transfers get to that four-year institution, a lot of that guidance they received at their local community college often goes down the drain, which is very concerning because research shows that having a bachelor’s degree is the best pathway to improve our social and our economic mobility.

So, when these students hit these roadblocks at four-year institutions, to sum it all up, it shows that these university actors aren’t necessarily listening to their needs.

Drumm: And when we talked before, we talked about guided pathways reform and how important that was in community colleges.

Guided Pathways and Transfer Policies

Drumm: Tell us a little bit more about that, if you would.

Joshua: At the community college level, reforms, such as the guided pathways model, have been very helpful. And, for those who are unfamiliar with guided pathways, it’s an advising model that rooted from the community college research center at Columbia University that many community colleges across the country have developed that creates this individualized plan for students to schedule classes and monitor progress. So, for instance, let’s just say we have a student who’s entering community college, and they’re really interested in getting a bachelor’s degree in communications. So through the guided pathways model, once they enter in their community college, their advisor would pretty much develop the entire plan for them from all the classes they would need to take at that community college to also all the classes they would need to take at that four-year institution so they can end up earning that four-year degree and as they’re taking those classes their progress is also being monitored. And they’re being given really great advising along the way.

Still, as we mentioned earlier, as transformational as this has been for community college students and community colleges. It only moves the needle a little bit because Community Colleges don’t necessarily decide which credits, will end up transferring or even if the student will get admitted to that university to begin with.

And that’s where I really hope to, really, emphasize that four-year schools need to grasp that transfer students and transfer policy is a complex public higher education issue. Rather than this isolated community college problem.

And the more that we can think of it in that way, the more we’re able to help all kinds of students, especially first-generation students of color and low-income students.

Drumm: What you’re talking about to me reminds me of something that David Decker at Franklin University has done a really phenomenal job with is: articulation agreements, understanding what credit hours will transfer to his university, et cetera because Franklin is an online degree completion university, and they do a phenomenal job at what they do when someone applies, they have articulation agreements and they have curriculum mapping from over 1,200 different community colleges across the country.

So that when a student applies, they know right off the bat how much it’s going to be, how much the degree is going to be, the credits are going to apply to the degree. There’s other states that mandate that transfers from public community colleges will have the credit have to be accepted.

And they’ve even gone as far as to say the course numbers are the same across the state. Those are all things I would think are helpful

Joshua: Yeah, definitely. I think everything you had just mentioned right now is extremely helpful, and they’re very helpful when, these public four-year colleges have those relationships, have those partnerships with their local community colleges, but those definitely, depending on, you know, which colleges in which states were referring to don’t necessarily always happen.

When I think about this topic, I think about a conversation I had with two researchers about their forthcoming book. Where they looked at the issues with community college transfers, and the one thing that they mentioned to me that really stuck was the quote, gatekeeping practices that they observed at the four-year institutions that they were looking at, and this is not to say that university actors have ill will but this idea of gatekeeping is often them trying to maintain the rigor of the programs at their respective university.

And you would think this would happen at, your quote-unquote, “prestigious universities” like a Harvard or a Yale, but this actually happens at public four-year schools. And many of them across the country who ultimately should be viewing themselves as part of that public higher education ecosystem just as much as their local community colleges, right?

And, are exhibiting that in ways that you had described and in your examples about partnering with their local community colleges to ensure that students who enter that community college have that really smooth pathway of they enter community colleges and they know exactly which classes they’re going to be taking.

So they can be successful at whatever public four-year school they want to transfer to

Drumm: Unfortunately, I’ve seen this when it comes to accreditation as well. You’ll have many higher ed institutions who are credited by the “former regional Accreditors.” now everyone’s known as an institutional accreditor, and they would not accept credits from schools who are credited by the former national Accreditors; they felt like the accreditation was less superior and therefore it was a way of gatekeeping so that they could stress their exclusivity, their rigor.

I have always been curious about that because the way that I learned was that if you’re accredited, you’re accredited. That’s not the way it happens.

Joshua: Yeah, definitely. I think everything you just mentioned right now is like right on the nose, right? It’s like sometimes it, can be like a little bit confusing for all actors within these college spaces, from students from advisors from faculty, to really understand like what exactly does it mean to have a rigorous course? What exactly does it mean to create this community college course that will end up transferring to whatever public four-year school a student really wants to transfer to?

And because of those, I guess you could say these Unique policies that are so that can end up being a little bit different, from institution to institution, it can be really hard to manage, especially, again, for advisors to be able to give, really good guidance to their students and for students to ensure that the classes that they’re taking will end up being viewed as, rigorous as, the right, as the right, class to count at that four-year school.

And this can definitely be a really tough pill to swallow, especially for states that prioritize institutional autonomy and decentralization. But, research shows that centralized policies, especially centralized transfer policies, are very beneficial for students and for especially for these local community colleges.

Because when you have these decentralized policies, and again, these various rules and policies that these four-year institutions, It often puts a lot of that burden on historically marginalized students and families to figure out the complexities Of the higher education system, which again, it puts a lot of burden on those first-generation students who may not necessarily have the social capital who may not necessarily have that community of people Who have gone through this system before to be able to give them the right guidance And the last thing we want is for these community college students These first-generation community college students to take these classes to learn all of these amazing things just for them You know A year or two later to realize that it was wasted time wasted effort because that credit didn’t count at that four-year school.

Drumm: And a lot of wasted money as well.

Joshua: Yeah, and a lot of wasted money, too.

And again, when we’re thinking about community college students and first-generation community college students, They often come from lower-income backgrounds and lower-income families, you know, every dollar really counts for them to ensure that they’re able to Succeed and get that economic that socioeconomic mobility, that they’re searching for by getting that bachelor’s degree

Drumm: So, what are some of the things that hired institutions currently do to make their institutions welcoming to first-generation students and especially these transfer students from colleges from Community colleges?

I know there’s good stories out there.

Joshua: Yeah, I think it always goes back to the idea of community and also, just creating that community one and also that sense of belonging for those students when you really when we really look at the demographics of students entering these four-year institutions.

They don’t necessarily follow that traditional Pathway that we’re used to seeing students at four-year schools, right? No, what you know, stories that we read Online from books through TV shows, etc., show that students who become freshmen at these four-year institutions are straight out of high school, and then they’re you know, they immediately go and become a freshman at this four-year institution.

But nowadays, it’s not necessarily the case, right? The demographics of students they look like that student who went to community college first and then transferred to a four-year institution, right? They look like students who took A gap year or many years after high school to decide what they wanted to do with their life before they ended up Enrolling into a four-year institution.

They look like that student who maybe they entered into a community college or A four-year institution, decided to leave, and then came back a little bit later in life once they felt prepared. So we’re not only seeing the demographics of students, you know, at these four institutions racially but also through their own life experiences their own lived experiences, right?

And being able to Acknowledge that right, being able to say that, you know, Get on the nose with that, And to be able to create that sense of community and sense of belonging is very important for these four-year institutions to do to ensure That not only are they you know As their student demographic is becoming so diverse that they’re also creating programs and policies that, that ensure that those students who end up enrolling stay at their institution.

Drumm: Are we seeing, since the pandemic or post pandemic, are we seeing far more pathways to entry into college than we used to? It seems like it to me, but.

Joshua: Yeah, again, that pathway into a four-year institution is looking so different for different kinds of students, right?

They can be entering in through that community college, getting that guidance first, and then going to their four-year institution. They can, have a community of people, whether it’s friends or family, who have gone through that system before that help them. Find that pathway into the four-year institution or you have students who enter into community colleges that don’t necessarily even want that four-year degree.

They just want that associate’s degree or that on-the-job training or that vocational pathway so they can get into the workforce immediately, which is a trend that we’re seeing a lot especially with young students with Gen Z students. So we’re definitely seeing this really diverse thought process from young folks on how they want, to achieve.

Achieve their goals in life, whether it does involve a bachelor’s degree or not, so yeah, so there’s definitely a lot of diversity when it comes to that, and

Drumm: with those multiple pathways, to me, it puts the onus on the institutions to have varied experience people who can talk to in the enrollment process Can talk to the various pathways, but instead the pre pandemic way of doing things was it’s up to the student to figure it out, And that doesn’t work anymore.

Joshua: Yeah, definitely. I think you bring up a really great point. I think that’s why, at the community college level, that guided pathways model Is so transformational for those students because it not only helps those students, particularly first-generation students who may not necessarily know the right steps the right steps to get that bachelor’s degree, it helps them figure out those classes.

It helps them it helps them also have advising along the way, not necessarily like maybe like once or twice a semester. They’re being guided and they’re being you know; their progress is being looked at along the way which isn’t necessarily a model that’s being exhibited at public four-year schools, or they may have different variations of it But it’s not really this like centralized thing that’s happening at these public four-year schools

Drumm: It makes sense if the advisors are trained and understood to be able to help students coming from various pathways that they could be more successful.

But it’s not just the advisors. I think it’s also the enrollment folks. It’s the faculty understanding the different ways that students come in and them staying involved with it as well. Does that make sense?

Joshua: Yeah, definitely. I think that all makes sense. There’s so many different actors within these university spaces that all contribute to not only like admitting, different, various types of students but also ensuring that they make it to that completion, and that always goes back to that sense of belonging, that sense of community that these, these institutions are creating for their students. What are they doing not only to help students but to make sure that these students know that they Are on the right path, that they are taking the right classes, that they aren’t wasting their money and their time.

And they’re learning something at that. There’s going to be outcomes at the end when they get that degree and by outcomes we’re talking about, is there going to be a job at the end of this degree? That’s going to give them a family-sustaining wage and that it’s going to be something that’s going to, again, help their economic mobility.

Success Stories and Personal Experiences

Joshua: In doing these articles that you have, you interviewed quite a number of students. I think he’s mentioned three for your third article. What were some of the stories you heard that talk to these points you’ve been making?

Yeah, Yeah, those three students definitely gave such a diverse and such a unique set of stories that really speak to the stories of many students right there are entering college right now.

I think once one story that really stuck out to me was from his name is Benjamin Gregory. So, Benjamin Gregory was the student who he was the older student that was navigating his transfer pathway. He actually initially enrolled into a four-year institution right after high school. And he as he liked to say he wasn’t necessarily focused at the time on his on his courses and instead, he felt like he was focused on getting a quote PhD and partying and because of that mentality he ended.

 He ended up leaving his school going straight into the workforce realized that going into the workforce without a degree wasn’t necessarily something that he wanted for himself then ended up enrolling into a community college and then transferring To a four-year school, and today he’s actually getting his doctorate At that same four-year institution, which is, super amazing for Benjamin, but one of the things that he had shared with me Is that especially since he followed that pathway of first community college?

Then, a four-year institution and now a doctorate at that same four-year institution was the mindset and the mentality of different professors at these different institutions. One of the things that he said was that a lot of the reasons why he was able to be so successful at that four-year institution was because of how amazing the professors at his community college were.

His professors were very attentive. They were making sure that he was progressing in the courses just as much as his advisors and other actors within the community college space were. Once he went to his four-year institution, that’s where the attention that he was used to at the community college didn’t necessarily go away. Still, they just weren’t as attentive as he was used to when he was at that community college.

The one thing he mentioned was that he believes that it’s because professors at community colleges, like that’s like their only, that’s their only job at community colleges is to be a professor and teach the students. So they were a lot more excited. They were a lot more attentive to every single student and where they were starting from versus at A four-year space.

There are oftentimes a lot of professors who are juggling a bunch of different things, right? They’re not only teaching, but they’re also doing research. They’re also doing other projects within their university. So, sometimes, teaching becomes secondary or even tertiary to all the things that these professors at four-year schools are managing.

But because of that, that ultimately creates that deficit and what that student at that four-year school really wants to get out of the course that they’re taking at that school. So, that was definitely one of the stories that really stood out to me. From that the article that you were mentioning.

Drumm: That’s phenomenal. Someone starting off at a four-year, dropping out, going back to community college, and then ending up with their PhD. I’m just curious about what is he studying and when will he what will he do his dissertation on. When will he graduate?

Joshua: Benjamin is studying I’m trying to remember right now.

He’s very he was always very into engineering. So, I believe he was studying engineering at his throughout his entire process, whether it was at their initial four-year school. He was studying engineering again at the community college and the transferring and doing engineering at his four-year school.

He’s currently getting his doctorate in chemical engineering. So he’s very much like in the laboratory. He wants to be a scientist and wants to do all, those amazing things.

Drumm: Yeah. Now, he’s going to go into research and forget about the students. No, I’m just kidding.

Joshua: No, that’s a really funny point, but the hope is that because he had those experiences, he knows. Once he maybe does inevitably become a professor, he decides to teach a little bit later in life that role that he plays at that four-year school as a professor is, can be really transformational for those students, depending on the number of the amount of effort that he puts in.

Drumm: I remember the first accreditation visit that I ever went on. The director of the school came up, and his cultural bias was that kids don’t care about you. Kids don’t care about how much you know Until they know how much you care, And that is so critical nowadays. Yeah, faculty are pulled in multiple directions, but frequently, if they just take the time to spend time with students and get to know them, it is that one person that makes all the difference in the world.

I remember on my own, I jokingly said I had a technical training course. I majored in physics at the Naval Academy. Regardless, I think back to my time at Navy, and It was the one faculty member who made a difference, who took me aside when I was struggling, and was like, yeah, you can do this.

Here’s what you need to do, etc. And it made all the difference in the world.

Joshua: Yeah, definitely. I think that story you shared just really speaks to how transformational educators can be. And especially in that higher education space, especially when we’re thinking about the social and economic mobility of students trying to get that bachelor’s degree, a lot of them.

Do say and have shared with me that a lot of the reasons why they say it was because they had that professor because they had that one person at that space that made them feel like they belong there, that, no matter where they were starting out from especially, when we are talking about, First generation students and we are talking about students of color when we are talking about these lower income students that they had those professors that saw them that really understood who they were as people and the value that they brought, not only to the class that they were taking, but to the institution as a whole especially as we’re thinking about For instance, especially with bans on affirmative action, I really think that there’s a lot of entrance convergence for these public four-year schools to continue to remain committed to the diversity efforts at their school again, by partnering with their local community colleges and ensuring that they’re providing that, That top notch that top level experience for these students who you know really want to be there and really want to learn but they just want to make sure that they feel like they belong in that higher ed community

Drumm: Yeah, and higher ed needs to remember That we’re here to help transform people from whatever walk of life they come and when we think about that it’s what’s that saying?

No, no person is greater when he helps them than when he helps someone and lifts someone up who couldn’t get there themself. That’s our role.

Joshua: Exactly. Exactly.

Drumm: Joshua, thank you. I so much appreciate your taking the time and, I wish you all the best there at The 74. I’d love to hear more about your future articles.

Three Key Takeaways for University Presidents and Boards

Drumm: At another time, but as we always do when we wrap up, what are three takeaways for university presidents and boards? What do they really need to know that came out of your research about listening to students and how to make them successful?

Joshua: Definitely. First and foremost, thank you so much, John, for having me on your podcast.

This has been such a lovely conversation. I’m always super happy to talk about the research that I’ve done and the articles I’ve written for The 74 I’m an even prior research that I’ve done before The 74 on college students on community college transfers. And. To your point about the retake aways for university presidents.

I think the first would be, as we had chatted about a little bit earlier there is some value in centralizing these policies, especially when it comes to transfer policies, which, again, can be a tough pill to swallow for states that prioritize decentralization and autonomy, but when you do prioritize that decentralization and autonomy, it often puts a lot of burden.

On first-generation students to figure out the complexities Of higher education that they may not necessarily have the same that have social capital that other students you may have that may have a community or family that have gone through the process to know and to understand, so centralization really helps like even that, playing field, right?

The second would be Again, especially with bans on affirmative action for public four-year schools that remain committed to diversity, there is a lot of interest convergence to achieve this by partnering with your local community colleges that often and historically have served first-generation students, students of color, and lower-income students.

And third, once these students end up being entered into your school, being entered into your school, right? Then, we need to remember and acknowledge that the makeup of the students is more diverse than ever, right? Both racially and also through their lived experiences. So really rethinking ways to create that sense of belonging and community, you know for all types of students at your school is very important.

Drumm: Thank you, sir. Wise beyond your years. I appreciate it

Joshua: I appreciate it.

Conclusion and Future Work

Drumm: So, what’s next for you? What’s the next series of articles you’ve got?

Joshua: That’s a great question. I actually have a Q& A publishing soon at The 74 on the two authors I had mentioned earlier that did that took a closer look at community college transfers.

I pretty much chatted with them about their book, it was a six-year study of more than 100 community college students and their findings from those community college students. And their insights were just so incredible, Drumm. And I’m so excited to share their insights and what they shared with me to our audience at The 74.

Drumm: That, that’ll be great. I look forward to reading about it. Joshua, thank you so much for being on the program. I look forward to the next time we get a chance to talk.

Joshua: Okay. Perfect. And thank you again, John. This has been amazing.

Drumm: My pleasure, sir. Take care.

Joshua: Okay. Take care.

Drumm: Thanks for listening, and a special thank you to Joshua Bay for joining me today. Joshua, thank you. It was a pleasure having you on the show, and I look forward to having you back to talk about future articles. Join me next time when I welcome Lauren Zelaznik to the program. Lauren is an author, publisher, board director, and strategic advisor.

You may not recognize Lauren’s name, but she’s had an exceptional career transforming the cultural landscape. She’s received two Peabody Awards and numerous Emmy Awards. Time Magazine has named her one of the Time 100 Most World’s Most Influential People. Lauren recently released a new book, Letters from the Corporation of Brown University, Lives of Usefulness and Reputation.

I will be joining me to talk about what I learned from this unique glimpse into the evolution of the uni institutions and enduring traditions and how they help inform our perspective on the range of issues that face most universities today. Thanks for listening. See you next time.