Empathy in Higher Education Leadership Without Losing Your Edge:

Changing Higher Ed podcast 294 with host Dr. Drumm McNaughton and guest Dr. Laura Parson

Transcript: Changing Higher Ed podcast  294 – with host Dr. Drumm McNaughton and guest Dr. Laura Parson

Introduction to Changing Higher Ed^®

Welcome to Changing Higher Ed^®, a podcast dedicated to helping higher education leaders improve their institutions. With your host, Dr. Drumm McNaughton, CEO of The Change Leader, a consultancy that helps higher ed leaders holistically transform their institutions. Learn more at changinghighered.com. And now, here’s your host, Drumm McNaughton.

[00:00:31] Introduction and Guest Welcome

Drumm McNaughton: Thank you, David. My guest today is Dr. Laura Parson, Associate Professor at North Dakota State University, and founder of the Empathy Classroom. Laura’s been teaching workshops on the development of empathy for over six years, and she’s an expert on empathy and leadership.

In today’s environment, where “Do it my way or else” seems to be the mantra, Laura joins me to talk about how important empathy is for today’s leaders and some of the ways that you can develop empathy in yourself and others.

Laura, welcome to the program.

Laura Parson: Thanks. Thanks so much for having me.

Drumm McNaughton: It’s my pleasure. I’m looking forward to a wonderful conversation. You’ve done some incredible work around leadership and empathy and how that may be the secret sauce to getting people to respond.

[00:01:22] Laura Parson’s Background

Drumm McNaughton: Before we get into that, please give us a little bit of your background.

Laura Parson: Sure. Thank you so much. Well, at present, I’m an associate professor at North Dakota State University. I’m actually housed in the School of Education and my focus is really on higher education. So I teach classes in higher education law, organizational change, organizational culture. My research has focused in two prongs. One is in the area of institutional and organizational structures and the ways that we can make changes to those things to better support the people that are in our institutions. And then the other is empathy, which we’re talking about today. And I wouldn’t call myself an empathy researcher, I would call myself someone who looks at the empathy research and tries to think about the best ways that we can implement it or train it or work on it in higher education, and so really, I focus a lot on that.

[00:02:18] Empathy in Leadership

Drumm McNaughton: Well, that makes perfect sense, and the empathy piece feeds right into your other areas.

Laura Parson: Yes, when I started working on empathy I didn’t know the impact that it was going to have on every aspect of my life. But I would say whether you’re one of my advisees or one of my colleagues, that empathy now, sort of, is how I think about everything. Whether it’s the way that we advise, the way that we teach, the way that we structure our institutional policies, and then of course what we’re talking about today when we think about how we lead.

Drumm McNaughton: That is so insightful, I appreciate that. How did you come to ID empathy as a leadership quality?

Laura Parson: Well, it’s a longer story that I’ll try to make short for your audience.

Drumm McNaughton: Oh, no, no, no. Tell us a story. I love stories.

[00:03:05] Discovering Empathy in the Air Force

Laura Parson: The whole story. I was doing work with the Air Force specifically at Air Force University, and we were identifying the competencies of an ethical leader. And in the work of identifying the competencies of an ethical leader, we did a survey that we sent out to airmen across the Air Force. And in that, when they came back, the one thing that they identified as what they were really looking for from their leaders was more empathy, among other data that we collected. And so that led me, I was tasked in that project of developing our empathy curriculum, working with Air Force leaders to really think about the ways that we could train leaders to be better at empathy.

And in that work I came to, sort of, see that a lot of what I had been talking about all along when it comes to perspective taking and the importance of being able to see from the perspective of others, which is empathy proper, what I had been thinking about all along was exemplified in this empathy thing that our research was sewing was a key leadership competency.

And so that’s what led me to empathy. And then I started thinking about what does that mean? If it’s valuable in the Air Force, maybe it’s also valuable for higher education. And that’s what sort of led me to my current path right now.

Drumm McNaughton: Very interesting. And I find it fascinating that you studied the Air Force with this of all the services, and I spent many, many years in the Navy, of all the services, I think the Air Force models itself more after corporate leadership than do the Navy or the Army or especially the Marine Corps.

Laura Parson: Yes. I can’t say that I’m an expert on corporate leadership. But I think one of the things that I took away from my time working with the Air Force and that project is over, is that this is an organization that really cares about leadership. And as a part of that, part of my work was talking about empathy, but in a way that connected to what these leaders were already getting training in and what they were already implementing. And so as a part of that, I got to go to the same trainings that a lot of the military leaders were going to, whether that was emotional intelligence or design thinking.

And so, a lot of those come from the corporate world. And so while I’m not aware of that, I do know that this is an organization that cares deeply about leadership and cares deeply about making sure that they’re as up to date as possible on what the best leaders do. So I got to be a part of that and so that makes a lot of good sense to me.

Drumm McNaughton: Yes, it certainly does. You mentioned the ability to understand situations from others’ perspective. What I’ve always believed in is “I don’t know somebody until I’ve walked a mile in their moccasins”. That’s what you’re talking about, isn’t it?

Laura Parson: Yes. Yes. I would say when we think about what empathy is, part of it is the ability to see the world from someone else’s position. So maybe that sort of saying walk a mile in their moccasins are in their shoes is a way of thinking about that. But it’s not just about walking in their shoes. It’s about feeling what they’re feeling as they’re walking in those shoes.

And so if we’re going on this sort of walk metaphor, which I like, it’s one thing to walk in someone else’s shoes but let’s say you’re a good walker, let’s say maybe you’re an ultra runner, walking in someone else’s shoes is going to feel very different than if, say you’re someone who maybe doesn’t on a regular basis, walk or run long distances.

And so empathy is, one part is, putting yourself in someone else’s position. But the other part is understanding how they’re feeling. And that doesn’t mean that you have to put aside your own, but in that time, understanding not only what they’re seeing and how they’re viewing the world, but how they’re feeling about that and those two things are critical, from an empathetic perspective or thinking about empathy as a competency, to really being able to practice empathy with that individual or those group of individuals.

Drumm McNaughton: And that’s a really good description of it. Thank you.

[00:07:04] Empathy vs. Sympathy

Drumm McNaughton: Now help us out— empathy versus sympathy. You’re real clear on what empathy is, it’s feeling, but where does the sympathy come in?

Laura Parson: Yes I think one of the things when I first started doing empathy trainings, I would hear one of two responses. And we can talk about the second one later. The first one was, oh, I’m too empathetic. I have too much empathy. I’m always feeling what other people are feeling. I’m getting, sort of caught up in other people’s emotions. And I would call that more sympathy than empathy. Where sympathy is often feeling for someone, where empathy is feeling with someone. And so if we think about sympathy, we might think about it more as pity. I’m pitying someone, or I’m feeling for someone else’s situation. That’s not really you putting yourself in their shoes and sort of seeing the world from their position. The other thing that I’ll say is, key to empathy is being able to maintain a separation between yourself and that individual.

[00:08:01] Empathy as a Leadership Competency

Laura Parson: And I think that’s critical to understand because I think the other objection to empathy that I would often hear is I don’t have time for empathy or that’s not useful in my environment, in my world. And empathy doesn’t mean that you have to lose your edge. Right? Like empathy doesn’t mean that you have to see from someone else’s position and then do whatever they want, or you think that they want. Empathy, as a leadership competency, is simply being able to see a situation from someone else’s position and then make decisions that are grounded in care and respect, both for that individual but for everyone that you’re responsible for.

And so sympathy is feeling for someone. I feel sad for you. I feel some sort of way. Empathy, especially as a leadership competency, is more about your ability to cognitively or simulate someone else’s experience and then be able to make decisions that are grounded in that understanding.

Drumm McNaughton: As well as being able to apply that decision to multiple different perspectives.

Laura Parson: Yes. Yes. Yes. Thanks so much for bringing that up. I think that’s the other thing that’s critical when we think about empathy as a leadership competency is we can sort of have our inter— maybe interpersonal is the wrong word, but we can have the empathy between you and I where I’m trying to put myself in your position to understand where you’re coming from and that’s important. Right? And that is often necessary. But when we think about empathy as a leadership competency, you are doing that for maybe that person or a group of individuals, but you’re also doing that for everyone, maybe, that reports to you or everyone that you are responsible to.

And in higher education, you’re doing that for an institution. And then you’re also doing that for yourself. Right? You’re making sure that you’re making decisions that also demonstrate that same level of care and respect. And so that’s where it comes in and that’s why I think it’s so important to differentiate sympathy and empathy.

If you’re thinking about sympathy or only really feeling for or taking action because you have some sort of emotions for one group of people, you might be neglecting the other people, the other folks that you’re responsible for and yourself. And that’s why empathy can be kind of hard sometimes because you’re required as a leader to take the perspectives of everyone and then make the best decision according to all of that information.

Drumm McNaughton: As well as the organization, as well as the students, et cetera, et cetera. It’s a balance act.

[00:10:25] Examples of Empathetic Leadership

Drumm McNaughton: Some examples of empathetic leaders in higher ed. One of the ones that comes up for me on the opposite end of a non-empathetic, is the mandates for return to office that we’re seeing in corporate America so much, and even at some higher ed.

So what are some examples of empathetic leaders, good leaders?

Laura Parson: Yes, it’s interesting, I was thinking about this before our call, and I know you’re not asking me to, but I can’t name specifics because it’s actually part of IRB protected research that I’ve done. But I’ve read hundreds of emails sent by higher education presidents across the United States.

And I would say the one thing that you see from empathetic, over empathetic, leaders over and over again is two things: demonstrating and providing examples of them hearing someone. So I’ve heard, I’ve talked to you, I’ve heard, I think what you’re saying is this, and here’s how I’m responding in kind.

And so that’s a broad, a broad example, that I think applies at both the macro level and also the micro level. Saying to someone, taking the time to hear. Taking the time to listen and then taking the time to explain or to demonstrate or to show that you have listened and then to exemplify how you’re taking action based on that.

And again, taking action doesn’t mean that you’re doing exactly what you’ve been told, but you’re saying, here’s what I’ve heard from all of the stakeholders, here is the action that I’m taking accordingly, and then continuing to do that in your practices. And I think you can do that in your communications.

Drumm McNaughton: Oh, for sure. In some ways people would call that listening and asking. Being able to frame the issue, understanding someone else’s perspective. Before we get into those behaviors, what are the benefits of being an empathetic leader?

[00:12:18] Benefits of Empathetic Leadership

Drumm McNaughton: All the way from a college university president, all the way down to department chairs and even faculty who are teaching and being empathetic to their students.

Laura Parson: So there’s not a lot of research specific to higher education leadership on empathy. Most of what we know actually comes from the corporate world. And empathetic leaders or empathetic cultures in general leads to environments that are more productive, that are more creative, which I think can intuitively make sense.

An empathetic environment helps folks to feel safe, to want to come to work, to feel cared about. And so we see just greater responses in general for the productivity of those teams. Teams in empathetic cultures have higher retention rates, are rated as more inclusive, as more supportive, and more safe.

All of those are good for business outcomes, but they’re also good for people outcomes, right? You want to keep people around. There has been some research done specifically about empathetic teachers and we see that teachers that are pursued as empathetic have better outcomes from their students.

Students are more engaged, metrics of greater academic performance is improved. So we see across the board that empathy has an impact on employees, on students, sort of on the environments that we’re taken. And I’ll also say too, although, I think sometimes this gets overlooked, empathy is important for yourself too.

So being empathetic with others and being empathetic with yourself can be a reciprocal relationship. And learning how to do one, can help you to be more empathetic with others, and those have good outcomes for yourself too. Better resilience, less burnout, more self-awareness, a better ability to manage your stress. Like the relationship here between empathy and really just improved sort of on every aspect of professional performance the research is very good for that.

[00:14:08] Skills and Behaviors of Empathetic Leaders

Drumm McNaughton: So skills and behaviors demonstrated by empathetic leaders. You just keyed into a couple of them. Self-awareness, being one, listening and asking, what are some of the other ones.

Laura Parson: Yes. I think if we think about the most important skill for an empathetic leader, the place I always start, is the ability to pause. And I think being able to stop and be mindful. And sometimes that means when you’re talking to someone, so I guess a key skill here would be active listening, but being able to stop and really consider what’s happening. What someone’s really saying to you. And then to pause and think about how do I want to respond in this situation? And that ability will take you a long way. Because sometimes, a lot of times, we might know or we might, upon reflection, we might know what the most empathetic action would be. But if we’re feeling rushed, if we’re feeling pressured, or if we’re focusing on the message we want to get out instead of listening to the message that’s being delivered to us, we can sort of rush through that process and maybe not make the best decisions.

I would say, mindfulness I think is key. And I think there’s also an ability of modeling and thinking about the ways that we can model either self empathy, so empathy for ourself, but how to be empathetic with others, and that can help others, both to feel valued, but then also to let that turn into an empathetic culture.

Drumm McNaughton: You touched on a number of different things, reacting, not, not reacting to stress, someone pushing your buttons, et cetera.

[00:15:44] The Importance of Self-Awareness

Drumm McNaughton: I view that as part of self-awareness. I know who I am. You are telling me who you are. Just because you think this way doesn’t mean that I have to think this way.

I can understand why and how you think this way. Does that make sense?

Laura Parson: Yes. Yes, absolutely. And I think sometimes people— I want to think about if this is the best way to say this— I think sometimes folks can feel afraid of putting themselves in someone else’s position because they think that means that they’re going to have to change what they think or what they believe.

And that’s not what empathy says.

Drumm McNaughton: Really?

Laura Parson: Yes. So I think, there’s a fear that like listening to another perspective or understanding why someone feels the way that they do or thinks the way that they do means that you then have to adopt that. That you have to adopt that way of seeing the world. And I, and again, this is I think my perception, but empathy doesn’t say that.

So empathy isn’t asking you to disregard the way that you see the world. It’s not asking you to disregard your beliefs. It’s not asking you to sort of throw away all the other perspectives that you’ve seen. It’s just asking you to think about and see a position from someone else’s position and to understand it.

And then I think this is key, it does ask you to accept that even if you don’t agree, and even if it’s completely different than your own worldview to accept that the other person’s view of the world is their truth. And so, and maybe that’s the more difficult, the more difficult part of empathy or more specifically perspective taking.

So it doesn’t require you to change your own views, it doesn’t require you to change the way that you see the world, but it does ask you to say, even if this is completely antithetical to the way that I see the world, I accept that this is the way that this person sees the world and this is their truth.

And to respect that and to honor that, even if you don’t agree with it. And I think that can feel scary. I think that can feel hard.

Drumm McNaughton: I bet it can for some people.

[00:17:46] Empathy and Emotional Literacy

Drumm McNaughton: It’s one of the things that I’ve always believed it’s empathy in many respects comes from a, having a curiosity to know you ask good questions to find out where that person’s coming. You don’t ask why questions, like, why are you doing this? It’s just help me understand that, that type of thing.

Does that make sense?

Laura Parson: Yes. Yes. I’m so glad that you brought up why questions. And why questions can feel really judgmental. Why did you do that? Why are you so late? Why, why, why, why? It can really put someone on the defensive. And if you can think about different ways to frame questions, I think that can be a critical part of empathy.

So even saying instead of why were you late today? Can you help me understand what happened this morning that meant that you were late for our staff meeting? Instead of why were you late? And I think that’s maybe a more minor example, but the more that we can ask questions in a way that don’t put someone on the defensive, don’t make them feel like they’re under attack, don’t make them feel like, oh my goodness, I’m about to get fired or I’m about to get in trouble. But just to genuinely seek to understand what’s happening and I think with an orientation towards how can we make this better for both of us, right? How can I better support you? How can we create an environment where you can be successful?

That can go a long way to making someone feel heard and to making them feel like this is a safe place for me to talk about what’s going on and to, troubleshoot problem solve what I need to do to sort of be more successful in this arena.

Drumm McNaughton: Thank you. One of the things that you talked about, empathy doesn’t mean that you have to adopt someone else’s thoughts or behaviors. You don’t have to, that’s not really empathy. That really comes from someone knowing themself very well. Again, going back to that self-awareness and part of that is somebody being able to say, to be vulnerable, to say I don’t know the answer to that.

Laura Parson: Yes. Well, and I want to, I guess, double click on this sort of idea of self-awareness too. Where self-awareness is important because it allows you to see and I’m going to step aside here for a second to give an example, but I don’t know about you, but I’ve had times, there are times where we can get caught up in other people’s emotions.

[00:20:11] Maintaining Self-Other Distinction

Laura Parson: So sometimes I’m in a great mood, my partner comes home and maybe they’ve had a bad day and they’re sort of in a slump. And then I feel myself sort of, kind of take on that slump and suddenly my great day is turned into not so great of a day. And that can happen with our employees or with our students where maybe they come in and we perceive, or they’re emotional and we can either let that sort of impact our emotion or we can sort of take on sort of the cause that we perceive that maybe they have. Maybe they, they’re telling us about how they’ve been mistreated by someone or by an advisor, or by a teacher, or something along those lines.

And you can kind of get caught up in that and it can feel like really sort of righteous activities to take. But what’s important about empathy again, is that self other distinction where you recognize that their emotions are not your own emotions and that can really help you to separate yourself from the situation. Not to disconnect from them, but to think about all of the people that you’re responsible for, like what’s the best activity for someone in your position to take right now? Are these my emotions? Are they someone else’s emotions? And so having that self-awareness is so important to be able to make that distinction.

So I’m really glad that you brought that up. But in saying that, I just realized I didn’t answer the second part of your question, if you don’t mind reminding me.

Drumm McNaughton: CRS struck, “Can’t Remember Squat”. So, no, you bring up a good point. Many people who are empathetic and I look at myself that way, I can pick up on other people’s feelings. You just mentioned a great example. Your partner comes home, you’re picking up on their feelings. They had a lousy day, what, et cetera.

The ability to differentiate between what is our feelings versus another person’s feelings is critical. And then to make the choice not to take on those feelings. I hear so many stories from faculty members , the student comes into their office for office hours, and this especially came out of the pandemic, the faculty member, how you doing?

And the student, or, the subordinate or whoever, just unloads on them with all the problems they’re having and it can drag down your own mental wellbeing. It’s not a, it’s not a healthy thing. You’ve got to be able to separate out what’s yours versus ours. And, most folks think about this from a faculty student perspective, but I can guarantee it happens with every senior subordinate relationship.

Laura Parson: Yep, Yes. Yes, I’d be hard pressed to find an example of when it doesn’t.

[00:22:53] Avoiding Burnout Through Empathy

Laura Parson: And I think this is particularly important when we start to think about burnout. And the ability to maintain that self-other distinction is part of the key element in keeping yourself moving towards burnout.

Sometimes I can think of this as the, like those waves as an ocean, right? And if you are sort of getting swayed with every emotion that comes into your office and as a senior leader in higher education, you’re getting a lot of emotions in addition to your own emotions.

And if you’re sort of going and allowing yourself to move sort of with the waves instead of allowing yourself to bob in the waves, right? Like kind of letting them pass through you if you’re letting them like carry you back and forth, that can lead very quickly to burnout. And so I think, and not everyone is always as—

Drumm McNaughton: Especially now with all the craziness coming out of the Department of Education, out of Washington, et cetera, you’re going back and forth and like a pendulum, you’re hitting the stops almost every day.

Laura Parson: Yes. Yes. Yes, exactly. And so that self-awareness and mindfulness, if that’s something that you’re open to, can be a great tool to sort of allowing yourself to develop the skills to sort of see the emotions, let the emotions go through you, right? It’s important to have what is called emotional literacy. So being able to identify and name emotions that’s critically important, both for yourself and those that you’re around. But not letting yourself get caught up in them. Because then you are sort of getting that whiplash where you can go back and forth with all of the news that’s constantly coming out.

And so the more that you can let those emotions go through you, and I’m going to pause here because one of the things I don’t do and I can’t do, is I can’t tell someone what empathy or what an empathetic behavior should look like for them. So, for example, like I know that I can say, tell me more about that, instead of why or how.

You saying that or someone else saying that might feel really weird. So what’s more important, I think, is the ability to think what does behaving empathetically look like for me? What are things that I can say, what are situations that I’ve encountered that I’ve left feeling like I want to be more empathetic?

And what does that look like for you? And so that same thing applies here when you’re thinking about how you sort of process these deep emotions or make sure that you don’t get carried away. Practice different strategies, whether that’s finding different mindfulness strategies and find out the ones that work for you.

So I, I can list dozens of them. I won’t. But some, good ones are thinking about breath work or box breathing. I remember there’s a story of, I want to say it was an executive who after like emotionally charged meetings would leave the meetings and like physically shake her hands to visualize shaking off like the emotions that she just had in that meeting.

And so I say that to say, not that you should do any of those, but that you should try all of them or whichever ones feel good for you, and then stick with one or two that really works for you to sort of allows you to not let those emotions sort of take you to and from shore every time you have to experience them.

[00:25:53] Developing Empathetic Leaders

Drumm McNaughton: So how do we develop better empathetic leaders in higher ed or anywhere for that matter?

Laura Parson: Yes. I think it’s complicated, because I don’t know that it will ever be successful for someone to come to someone else and say, you know what you need more empathy. And so the reason I say that is, is I think you might feel that way, right? And it, you might feel that way, but that’s not going to be the most successful.

And so I think the first place to start is for leaders to, or whomever, to self-identify as wanting more empathy. And I think that starts with identifying what empathy is and then thinking about situations maybe where empathy would’ve benefited the situation, and or maybe would have led to different or better outcomes.

Whether that’s empathy with yourself and that can really help you to identify sort of some areas where you’d like to develop. And if we think about empathy in different domains, you might find self empathy to be more challenging than empathy with your subordinates. Or you might find empathy with your colleagues to be maybe more natural than empathy with subordinates or vice versa. And so part of this, I think, is identifying a problem centered need for empathy in your life. So saying, I can see that being empathetic would help me in these ways or would help the people that I’m responsible for in these ways.

And that might be, it will help me to better connect with my subordinates so I’m better able to motivate them. It will help me to maybe better manage my own stress. It will help me to better identify when my staff is getting burned out. And then from there you have a problem centered need, right?

You’ve said I’ve identified ways that I can improve and then that can sort of allow you to think, and I would, I think the best way to start is always with specific situations, even thinking, doing a role play with others or with yourself where you say, this is what happens, this is what happened, maybe this is where I feel like I could have been more empathetic. Next time I will take this action, right? Because I think developing some of that fluency with that language by anticipating in advance will help you to put it into practice.

Drumm McNaughton: It’s a very good point.

[00:27:59] Empathy in Higher Education

Drumm McNaughton: One of the things that I think about is leadership development and Kouzes and Posner’s, the leadership challenge, they’ve got the qualities that they feel make up a good leader. The other one is, for me, it’s self-reflection. If you want to be empathetic, great. The question I would ask is do you really care what others are thinking or saying?

And this is a hard one, especially for, and I’ll use the term narcissistic, leaders who think they’re always right or they need to be in leadership positions that feed their ego. People forget that leadership is about service to others and being a servant leader versus just the, hey, it’s my way or the highway type of thing.

Does that make sense?

Laura Parson: Yes. Yes, I think it makes good sense.

[00:28:57] Empathy Lite and Authenticity

Laura Parson: And something that we sort of maybe colloquially, or I don’t even know if colloquially is the right word, referred to as empathy lite. And by empathy lite, it’s sort of this idea that I’m going to be empathetic because it’s going to help me to achieve some sort of external goal.

So I’m going to be empathetic because it means that you’ll work harder for me, or I’m going to be empathetic because it means that I’m going to better meet my business goals. And so those things are probably true, right? And I say that to say like, being empathetic in the research at least does show that we do get better business outcomes. But it’s also pretty clear when something’s not genuine, right? Or when it’s not authentic. And I think yes, leadership is in service of others.

[00:29:39] Empathy in Service of Higher Education

Laura Parson: But when we think specifically about higher education and the goal of higher education, leadership in higher education is in service of others, but the that who those others are is a huge sort of swath of the population. If higher education is for our students and for our faculty, but also for thinking about our communities, right, and the impact that we’re playing there. The importance for us to be thinking about all of those people and what they might need and how we might help them, that is both a challenge, but also an opportunity.

And if empathy helps our leaders to be better at supporting their students, to be better at supporting subordinates and colleagues and achieving sort of our mission-driven roles in higher education then that is what leadership is. But it’s also this really cool opportunity that not a lot of folks and not a lot of industries have.

And so I see empathy as one of the tools that allows us to do that and do that in a way that also like honors ourselves and helps us to take care of ourselves too.

[00:30:39] Final Thoughts on Empathy

Drumm McNaughton: Well, I was going to ask another question, but frankly, I just think you’ve said it all and I don’t want to go any further. That was just a wonderful wrap up to our conversation. Thank you.

Laura Parson: Yes. Thank you for the opportunity.

[00:30:52] Three Takeaways for Leaders

Drumm McNaughton: And as we always do, three takeaways for presidents and boards. How can they build better empathetic leaders and impact their institutions.

Laura Parson: Sure. I think the first thing is to model empathy themselves. So if you are wanting more empathy from your leaders then take that first step yourself and think about what that looks like in your environment, how you can demonstrate it, and how you can explain it. I think taking the time to listen is always important.

So, can I listen? Can I demonstrate that I’m listening and then demonstrate through my actions that I’ve heard what’s being said. And then I think the final thing to do is to always recognize and be open to the value of perspective taking. What can I learn? I love what you talked about, just being curious. What can I learn from putting myself in the position of trustees? What can I learn from putting myself in the position of parents? And being able to see from all of those different perspectives will just, I think, make us better at being leaders in higher education and sort of fulfilling our missions.

Drumm McNaughton: And being better people.

Laura Parson: Yes. Yes. I think so.

Drumm McNaughton: Absolutely.

[00:32:02] Conclusion and Farewell

Drumm McNaughton: Laura, what’s next for you?

Laura Parson: Well, I think the next project that I’m working on it’s a book proposal, it’s under review right now that will be a hundred and so strategies on ways that you can practice empathy in different areas of your life. So kind of a workbook that people can go through and say in this specific setting, whether it’s a meeting or a faculty meeting, here are some ideas for the ways that I can put empathy into practice.

Drumm McNaughton: That sounds wonderful. I’m wondering, is a baseball bat part of that tools? No, I’m just kidding.

Laura Parson: It’s not, not yet. Not yet. But but if I can work one in, I’ll figure out how to do that.

Drumm McNaughton: Very good. Well, Laura, thanks again for being on this show. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. I look forward to the next time our paths cross.

Laura Parson: Absolutely. Thanks so much again.

Drumm McNaughton: Thanks for listening today and a special thank you to my guest, Dr. Laura Parsons. Laura, it was a pleasure having you on the show. I look forward to the next time our paths cross. From my guests. Thanks again for tuning in. I look forward to seeing you next week.